What we love about Anna’s story is how she found herself performing various aspects of a business analyst career before joining the Bridging the Gap program. Despite facing career uncertainty and layoffs, her decision to join the program only increased her passion for business analysis, while empowering her to champion other BAs who were learning alongside of her.

In this interview, you’ll discover how:

• The program built on Anna’s experience, while also providing a new layer of depth and knowledge to some of her favorite aspects of business analysis.
• Anna realized a new sense of confidence as a more polished BA which opened the door for her to mentor junior BAs and even start pursuing a career in Business Architecture.
• The feedback she received during her time in the program gave her the guardrails needed to truly execute excellent work for her organization.

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap and I am so excited to be here today with Anna, who was a participant in the recent session of the Business Analyst Blueprint. And iis here to talk a little bit about her business analysis career journey and her experience with the program. Anna, thank you so, so much for being here.

Anna: Thank you for having me, Laura. It’s always a pleasure.

Laura Brandenburg: We got to connect quite a bit through your session and through a lot of the office hours calls. I’m just really excited to hear even more of your story and your positive vibe. You always bring so much positive energy. So why don’t you just get us started and share a little bit about where you were at before you found Bridging the Gap or before you started The Blueprint. Where were you at in your career? What were you looking for professionally?

Anna: I’m glad that you ordered it that way, because in my career, prior to business analysis, I had my undergrad in HR. I didn’t get an HR job. I jumped into billing and ended up working for an IT MSP (managed service provider). They weren’t too established. I have a natural hustle or a go-getter attitude, and I wanted to help them develop some sort of foundation on how things work because no processes were documented. What everyone did was in their brains, so nothing was in a repository. Myself and another young lady that I worked with, we worked together to develop a knowledge base for all the processes. And then when mergers happened, she and I were the primary ones putting over all of the data from one system to another.

In  2017, I came across Bridging the Gap on YouTube because I was brought with the project on implementing Salesforce. Now, I know that Bridging the Gap doesn’t have much to do with Salesforce, but I was looking for ways to get more organized, and I saw where Salesforce had a business analyst, not a career path at the time, but it was an element that business analysts should learn, so to speak.

And so I googled “learn business analysis” and came across Bridging the Gap. I’ve been hooked ever since. I followed you on LinkedIn and subscribed to Bridging the Gap’s YouTube channel because your knowledge has been helpful.

At the IT managed service provider employer where I was working, I helped with project coordination. And there was an element to one of your videos – I cannot recall the exact one – that I was able to apply to my own career in that time.

And after being laid off from that company, business analysis was the way that I really wanted to go. Because at that company there wasn’t a role for BA and so I was doing a project coordination work because there just wasn’t a BA role available at the time.

After I was laid off, I went to different clients and added more tools in my toolbelt. Eight years later, up until now, I’ve finished The Blueprint program. I was able to become a more polished business analyst. I’m also aiding junior business analyst as well.

That background with Bridging the Gap and Laura’s information has really helped solidify my career as a BA for sure.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s so interesting that you talk back to 2017, where it sounds like you were really doing business analysis under an HR title. Right. But then you joined the program in 2023. Obviously you learned a lot of things along the way. But then there was something that shifted when you chose to join The Blueprint program now.

Anna: For clarity, my degree was in HR and my specialization was HR, but the position itself, was IT project coordination or project management. And so the reason why I joined in 2023: I’m making more money now, so I’m able to afford the program. Also I had an employer who believed in me. So having that support of someone saying, “Hey, Anna – do it, go for it; this is why we need you here.”

Laura Brandenburg: Sometimes I think just all the things have to fall into place, right. So did your employer end up paying for the program?

Anna: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: You funded it at first and then your employer covered it. That happens a lot. What how did that unfold for you?

Anna: We are paying a pretty penny, but like I said, it is well worth it. I said to my employer, “Hey, I’m interested in this program and here’s the details.”  But I got an email that the deadline’s approaching to enroll. So I made a quick decision to join the program. And I went back to my employer, and we were able to smooth it out. So like I said, that employer support goes a long way for sure.

Laura Brandenburg: For sure. It sounds like you brought a lot of business analysis experience into the program, but like what changed as you went through it or what were some of the key experiences for you? Did you work on a specific project? Did you apply it to different projects?

Anna: Being exposed to the different elements that The Blueprint provides within business analysis really helped me. I was able to not necessarily have one module that we went over apply to every project that I’ve worked on. But during the program – yes, I was working on projects. Yes, I was applying what I’ve learned in each module to those projects.

Another thing for me that was big was getting that feedback because I’m a maverick. And so I like to do things my own way. That’s how clients in the past have been. But it was very, very educational when I would provide a deliverable in my own way, but then get the feedback like, “Hey, this isn’t what we talked about, this isn’t what was listed.”

So it’s a matter of adjusting yourself and having the flexibility to get out of your own way and do it the way the client wants it.

Laura Brandenburg: Is there a module that stands out to you?

Anna: Business Process Analysis. The first module. Mapping – that’s my forte. I love BPM and process mapping. That’s led me to work, essentially – that’s 60% of my job.

Whenever I get feedback that wasn’t aligned to the workbook standard, I was taking that like, “Hey, this is what I do”, but I realized this is coming from a good point. Let me do this the way that they needed done. Those new ways I’ve incorporated into my day to day career.

Laura Brandenburg: Obviously what you did was working because you were successful, but sometimes there’s just a little tweaks that make it easier or clearer, long term.

Because you brought this up, one of the things I love is that you were in our program and then you were also part of our membership for a while where we had the community together. And you were one of the few who have been active in not just posting things and sharing things to get feedback, but also to provide feedback to other people, which I just love witnessing.

How did that help you? Was that something that you just enjoy to do, or is that something that you also learn from a little bit later? What was your motivation around that?

Anna: The Blueprint program gave me the confidence to give my $0.02. I felt comfortable contributing to certain feedback requests and posts, or even during the office hours calls, because that that’s how I feel that business analysts should grow. And I feel like that’s how it’s grown by building off of one another. My parents say iron sharpens iron, so you only get better whenever you surround yourself with those who can make you better, essentially.

Laura Brandenburg: I want to also say, I appreciate you being the one who helped to build up other people, because it’s one thing to hear feedback from me, but also you often provided a slightly different take than I would, or you saw something that I would have missed. And so I think that’s true within the community too. Just having multiple eyes on your work is just so.

Anna: Appreciate that for sure.

Laura Brandenburg: So tell us: where are you at now?

Anna: Business analysis will always be something that I’m always going to carry with me. I’m always going to go back to. Currently, one, I am helping build other junior BAs. And, who knows, I may lead a team of BAs. Let’s put that into the atmosphere.

But I’m also going into a direction for business architecture, and that’s not really too much of a learning curve, but I feel like it’s a great route for me in terms of bringing business analysis on, in dealing with, decisions and applications, pieces of it as well.

Laura Brandenburg: So exciting. So you’re providing feedback to junior BAs already, building that leadership experience.

Anna: And being their cheerleader, yes.

Laura Brandenburg: How’s that going?

Anna: Fairly well. Just yesterday I was on a call with the PM and two other junior BAs and the PM was like, “Anna, do you want to do this?” And I said, “No, let’s let this other person do it. You got this. We’re all here together.” So just being that cheerleader for those who don’t have that inner cheerleader themselves.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. And I will say that often comes from being part of a community or part of a program that give you that confidence to know the structure that they need.  So now you know the tools that they need to be successful. It’s really fulfilling for me to see people grow from the doer into the leader.

Anna: You may see them in your Bridging the Gap program.

Laura Brandenburg: I would obviously love to help them. Is there anything else that you would like to share with people who might want to follow in your footsteps in their career or are interested in joining the program?

Anna: So if you want to follow my career – have an open mind, ask plenty of questions, and be ready for whatever. Roll with the punches. Be susceptible to feedback, both positive and critical. But in terms of The Blueprint… do the program, do the program. It can be time consuming. And I should have done an earlier cohort that didn’t occur during the holidays.

I highly recommend it because it helped me become a more polished business analyst. It exposed me to areas that I wouldn’t necessarily touch as a functional business analyst, such as the ERDs and the system and the data items.

Getting more polished up in each of those areas is just giving me the confidence to want to do more.

Laura Brandenburg: You are on to now learning about business architecture and expanding on those skills. Those skills never go away. But yes, it is a bit of an intensive investment in time and energy, that’s for sure.

Anna: My last point that I’ll make is that within The Blueprint program, being around fellow business analysts or transitioning business analysts or just those who have an interest in business analysis, having a new network, new friendships, that can be valuable as well. Being in the membership community and getting those different contacts as well has been very beneficial to my career as a BA.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, thank you so, so much, Anna. I appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us today. I’m looking forward to continuing to watch your journey. I know you are definitely a go-getter and you’ll be somewhere completely new and exciting. I appreciate that about you so much.

Anna: Thank you, Laura.

What we love about Chad’s story is how, through The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, he was able to identify skillsets developed in his previous career that were business analyst skills, but lacked the framework to make the skills transferable. The training program provided Chad with a repeatable process framework with quality deliverable outputs that have allowed him to streamline his work and focus on the most valuable deliverables.

In this interview, you’ll discover how:

• The skills Chad learned through his 20 years of experience as a Director of eCommerce were easily transferable to a skillset in business analysis.
• The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program provided Chad with a repeatable framework for projects, as well as, how he has seen that same framework work for colleagues across a variety of industries through the training program’s Office Hours.
• Chad juggled a busy work schedule and home life with the training program course material. He provides tangible examples for how to integrate the course work into career work and how blocking his time proved to be the most effective strategy for prioritizing the course deliverables.

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome. I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap here today with Chad Crider, and I’m so excited. Chad was one of the first participants in the updated version of The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, where I’ve been back in a teaching and instructor capacity and got to work with him directly on his business analysis skills and doing all kinds of great things in his career.

So Chad, welcome. I’m so glad you’re here. Thank you for joining us.

Chad Crider: Thank you for having me. I’m excited.

Laura Brandenburg: So first, if you could just take us back to a little over six months ago when you started the program. Where were you at in your career? What were your goals? What were some of the things that you were worried about professionally? What was going through your head at that time?

Chad Crider: So to go back six months, we should probably quickly go back three years. Up until three years ago this month, I was a director of e-commerce for a local company, and I was miserable. I mean, part of that was the pandemic. And, everything that came along with that and working just insane 80, 90 hour weeks.

And it got to a point where I needed to make a change for my own mental health. And so this opportunity as an application administrator came open, and I thought, you know what? I know a couple of people there. Let’s see what this is. And, started and I really enjoy what I do.

I love working, kind of part support, part BA, part app development. It’s a really unique kind of position that I get to occupy in the business. And, as we started talking through, I have 20 years of experience before I came here in a different career path.

And I told Nik, who was also in your class, I feel like I have a lot of skills, but I don’t have a lot of framework for them. And he said, well, this Bridging the Gap course is going to be changing how we do things. And we’re looking at running a couple of people through it, would you be interested?

And so we talked through it and he showed me the stuff that he worked on when he went through the class. And I talked with my wife about it and I said, you know what? I think this is like the next step to kind of figure out if I want to do more BA work?

Do I want to continue with the idea of getting into data? So that’s how I ended up, in Bridging the Gap, trying to take all the skills that you learn over a lifetime in a career and provide a framework for how you do things. I’d never thought about anything I had done as an e-commerce director through the lens of BA work, but it’s a lot of BA work. So that that was the motivation.

Laura Brandenburg: I love that how you talked about that because so many people feel like they don’t really have a career, like they’ve been doing these different roles and filling different gaps, and often they have a ton of business analysis experience that they don’t appreciate or realize is even valid.

It sounds like that was part of the awareness that you had going as part of joining, but also going through the program. What did that look like to realize like, oh, I’ve actually been doing this for 20 years.

Chad Crider: Yeah, there were a couple of moments, [when I realized] that this course is helping me in multiple ways. It’s helping me because, when Nik or one of our other BAs that I work with a lot starts talking now, I know some of the reasons why they ask the questions they do, the way they do the framing.

Personally, I felt a little lost when I first started this career because it felt like such a divorce of everything that I had done before. And now going through The Bridging the Gap [training course], I’m able to look at it and I’m able to say, you know what? I’m not doing it the same way anymore, but it’s the same processes that I was following – being mindful of scope and all these little things that you just learned to pay attention to. But you just didn’t have that that framework that ties it all together to make it repeatable every time.

Quick aside – here’s the business analysis process framework Chad is talking about – you learn it in module 4 – The BA Essentials Master Class.

Laura Brandenburg: So you kind of feel like you’re making it up as you go along, even though you really are applying principles that make sense.

Chad Crider: Right.

Laura Brandenburg: One of the things that you said when you registered for this was that you used the same project all the way through. Can you share a little bit more about that project and what your takeaways were?

Chad Crider: I work for a manufacturing company. One of the parts of our manufacturing process, we create film plastic that food is stored, wrapped, and frozen in. We’re adding to that business and we’re looking for a new certification in that.

We had these traceability exercises that we had to be able to successfully prove that we can do this. We have that for a lot of our other processes, but for this new process, now that we’re going for the certification for these specific things, it can’t just be, well, we kind of do that. Now we need it to be documented. Now we need to be able to see if there were a recall or something, we have we have a finite amount of time that we have to start that. So they said, we would like you to spearhead getting this traceability going for us.

That that started right after Halloween, so early November. And then I started Bridging the Gap, right after Thanksgiving. So, there was there was a little bit of run up to it here on campus for me. But then it was basically, as I’m going through these lessons, I tried to purposely steer myself this way. I was able to look at the modules, see what we have, see what I can learn quickly to start digesting.

And then there’s the deliverables as part of doing the coursework. My deliverables are what I’m providing and building to give to my colleagues here on campus. It was it was fantastic. And yesterday was our final meeting on that [project].

We’ve got everything going. Traceability is working the way we expected. And now we’re just doing some reporting stuff, nothing major, but just stuff that now we’re in that wrap up hyper care phase.

Laura Brandenburg: Well congratulations. That sounds like a great project. One of the things I loved about having you and your colleague in the program is that manufacturing is not an industry that I’m exposed to. And just hearing about the kinds of projects in manufacturing and how that really applies. We always have so many different industries as part of the program, but the types of projects and how they show up.

So congratulations. And I thought it was a really cool project and also a really value-add for your company too.

Chad Crider: There was a satisfaction within me to want to know I’m the one who’s doing this, but I’m also able to do it in such a way that I’m also learning and kind of nurturing my own inner curiosity as we go along.

Laura Brandenburg: What do you think is the biggest difference between how you approach this project and maybe how you would have if you hadn’t been going through the program side by side?

Chad Crider: I am very much, kind of like a ping pong ball. I know this about myself – ADHD, whatever you want to call it. I latch onto something and I go with it, and then something else catches my attention. So I would have kind of bounced from requirement to requirement from this piece to that piece.

And I would have been trying to apply processes to it, but in very, very small bite size increments, probably right up until someone like Nik was like, “Hey man, we need some deliverables!” And then I would have freaked out and I would have spent a weekend getting deliverables ready.

As opposed to, with a course like this, talking through the steps. When we were all done, and because I did module four (The BA Essentials Master Class) last, I went back and I said, “Okay, I’m going to do this  module. And then I’m going to make sure because we’re getting ready to wrap this all up. Is everything here? Is everything good?” And just being able to do that and make sure that I’m keeping myself on task and build a document that I can use as my template. This is how I’m going to start now.

It feels like a completely different way to try and do my job.

Laura Brandenburg: Is it something you’re continuing to apply in other projects?

Chad Crider: Absolutely, yeah. One project that went really smooth is great. But being able to say okay, now I proved that not only does the process work, but it’s a process that I can follow and I can do this. So now it’s like, okay, we’re just going to keep doing this. The same kind of format, the same kind of thing.

And sure, you’ll have to change things based on the project. Nothing is ever going to be perfect. But it is a wide enough range template. You know that you can make it fit almost anything, I think.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome to hear. One of the things I really appreciated about having you in the program is you were on just about every office hours call. You asked questions in the forums, but you were definitely really engaged in the office hours calls. What was that like from your perspective? What did you take away, both from your questions, but also other people with questions – what was that like for you?

Chad Crider: So I the thing I love the most about the office hours was this was time not just with you one on one, having a conversation. This was also time with other people doing BA work who I would never run into these people in a normal day-to-day situation. There are different industries, different parts of the world. It was motivating to go to the office hours knowing that, for example, Anna was part of this program at the same time, and she’s doing something completely different from what I’m doing. But we’re using the same concepts to do our jobs.

It was fascinating to listen to how she approached it. And then, you asked questions the same way to both of us. It was very interesting to see how the question doesn’t have to change, even though the answer is going to change based on a perspective or career or industry or whatever.

I did a presentation on the Bridging the Gap course here at work. I found on LinkedIn, or maybe it was on Google, you have a slide out there somewhere that says, business analysis is a skillset, not a job title or something like that. Looking at your office hours and seeing how everything worked really drove that point home where we’re developing a skill set, not a job title.

And if you develop a skill set, that skill set is going to be transferable.

Laura Brandenburg: I love hearing that because the people we get in the program are so varied. Like you said, we have people from different countries, in different parts of the US, different industries. I’m always nervous, like, oh, is this industry going to be the one that my questions aren’t going to work? But you can always find some way of how to apply these foundational business analysis skills set to work within that organization to do something better.

Chad Crider: Absolutely. And it was really interesting the way myself and my colleague that took the course with me. We’re working on very different perspectives of the business right now and we had a weekly call amongst us with Nik, just to talk about everything. And it was very satisfying to see the office hours and the calls that we had here on campus and talking with Nik and it just seeing that as long as you’re approaching this as “these are skills, this is something that there is going to fundamentally change how we approach things.” Industry seems to be set dressing.

Laura Brandenburg: So last question for you and then you’re welcome to share anything else you’d like as well. But I know you have some exciting career goals, so where do you see yourself headed now that you’re obviously excelling in this role that you’re in?

Chad Crider:  My goal is to end up as a data engineer here. I think one of the most important parts, especially with how our business is set up – we are multi-site, multi-state, different time zones. We’re not multinational yet. But we need to have good, solid practices to make sure that myself, working in Ohio, when I’m working with someone in Chicago or South Carolina or Massachusetts or Wisconsin, we approach it the same way every time.

We can use this to drive culture within our IT department so that we know as we start to build out our data sets and we start to engage with people around the business that we’re being mindful of what they need in the same way that we would be mindful if we’re turning on new software or if we’re putting up some new part of the network for a new building or something like that. We need to make sure that we’re treating our data and the consumers of our data in the same manner.

That’s really kind of the part that I’m hoping to kind of get in and drive. We’re going to start a big push to make our decisions better informed with better data.

It’s slowly heading that way. I’ve been brought in on the data warehouse team to start working through some of these data sets. I’m working with logistics right now on bringing on a new outside warehouse. It’s third-party warehouse. It’s like 300,000 sqft. And working with a project manager, working with myself as kind of the BA role on it – working with everybody else to meet an aggressive deadline by the business. It’s very exciting.

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like you’re already taking steps for that, which is also how I always advise people to get into business analysis. Just take some projects that kind of get you in that direction, so you’re taking a step forward.

Chad Crider: Take a step, grab a hold of it. Take the opportunity. It’s probably going to be scary. I’m not going to lie. You know, I’ve never done anything to turn on a 300,000 square foot warehouse, you know? But now I’m going to and it’s kind of nerve wracking at times. But, I know that I’ve got BA resources here on campus. I’ve got a couple of connections made through the [BTG] community. I’m excited to reach out to people and say, “Hey, this is kind of what I’m doing. what do you think?”

Laura Brandenburg: Very exciting. Thank you so much for sharing the story about your experience in the program. Is there anything else that you would like to leave people who are listening that might be looking to follow in your footsteps?

Chad Crider: Yes. This is what I told people when I did the presentation to our IT team. I am in my 40s. I have a life. I have a wife, I have kids, I have a kid in college right now. I have a job. I have all these things. I am a very busy guy. I still found time every week to work on this process, to work on this program, to make an investment in me for my career.

If I can do it, anybody can do it. You just have to budget your time. Now, I will say, if you’re if your employer is super awesome and you’re able to work on this for your employer, there is there are easy ways to say this can benefit us as I’m taking the course. So don’t be afraid to try that angle if you need to.

Laura Brandenburg: I think, prioritizing the time investment is so important. And so key. And you mentioned the ping pong effect that you have. So can you just share a little bit like what was your actual strategy for making the time. Because that’s a big challenge for a lot of people.

Chad Crider: So I knew we had the office hours with you once a month. Amber and I, my colleague that also went through this [program], we had set up a call every Thursday morning. We were going to get together and talk about what we had worked on the week before, and we made sure we put that on our outlook calendar.

We blocked out that time. And we said, this is not just help for us. This is holding ourselves accountable. It was only a 30-minute call, just to talk through things. But then we would then know, Thursday I’m going to meet with Amber or she’s going to meet with Chad to talk about what we did.

So it was one of those things like, I have a deadline that I’ve given myself. Now I’m going to start to look, where can I fit this in? And I’ll be honest, the lesson part was the easiest part, because, you know, all the lessons are 30 to 45 [minutes], maybe an hour long.

So that was that was great – turn them on, go through the PDF while you’re talking on the video, taking notes. Then the deliverables, I thought that was going to be the easiest part, because I’ll just take my laptop home and do it. Because I did it for a lot of stuff at work I needed to have access to the work resources. So convinced my boss that this two hour block a week, we’re just going to block that out. And that’s what I’m going to work on my requirements deliverables. And they were very excited for the opportunity to get that time because that’s two hours that I am blocked out. I am just working on this project. They didn’t look at it as well. That’s two hours. Chad’s going to school. No, no, that’s two hours. Chad’s working on this project. And it helped immensely.

Laura Brandenburg: I think that’s such a great takeaway – a big project needs focused attention. That’s a strategy whether you’re taking a course or not, to have focused time to work on your deliverables or the analytical thinking or just whatever you need to move that project forward, it’s just so essential. That’s a great practice. Thank you for sharing that.

Chad Crider: Paper – most of the time is just doodle stuff. But I started keeping a stack of paper here just so I could, like, jot down notes or something. So doodles lead into notes, which lead into deep questions to think about later. It’s great. I will never not have paper right here when I’m going through some sort of project planning.

Laura Brandenburg: I’m a big fan of handwritten paper. I’ve got my weekly to-do lists right here.

Thank you so much Chad. I am looking forward to reconnecting in a while to see how does this all this unfold. Because you’re on a really great career path and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this today.

Chad Crider: It’s been a blast. Thank you very much.

Laura Brandenburg: You’re welcome. Thanks so much.

What we found insightful about Terry’s story is how he happened upon business analysis through a meaningful conversation with his manager and then subsequently how he found himself a part of Bridging the Gap.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How Terry discovered Bridging the Gap and how he made the decision to join The Business Analyst Blueprint® program.
• How much his employer valued the hands-on aspect of the program.
• How the frameworks helped him bring more structure to what he had felt was a haphazard approach to his projects, and think through things proactively.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Good day. I’m Beverly Sudbury, and I’m an instructor with Bridging the Gap. And I’m here today with Terry Mullins, who is from Columbus, Ohio. He’s currently working as an IT business analyst in the engineering and construction industry. Today, Terry’s going to share with us his journey and how he participated in the Business Analysis Blueprint program and how that contributed to his success.

Thank you, Terry, so much for showing up today and sharing your experience.

TERRY MULLINS: Well, thanks, Beverly. I appreciate the invite to be here, and it’s a pleasure to talk to you and see you.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Great, Terry. Thank you so much again. I’m excited to hear about how you went through things and how you experienced things in the program. So shall we dive in?

TERRY MULLINS: Yeah, absolutely.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: All right. So can you take me back to a time slightly before you actually joined us at the Business Analysis Blueprint program and tell us where you were at in your career and what were you looking to try to achieve?

TERRY MULLINS: The firm that I’ve worked with, I’ve been here a number of years, 30 plus years. I’m a lifer and I have a vested interest in how can we do things better? How can we be more productive? I was in the IT world and still am. For a number of years I did CAD, computer aided design support. A lot of IT support, a lot of programming, software development, things along those lines.

A couple of years ago, about three years ago, I found myself starting to do a lot more R& D on the tech side of things. What are some things that we, as an engineering firm, can be doing that’s industry trends? What are some service offerings we can offer to our clients to build a better product, maintain a better product of things along those lines.

I found myself kind of morphing into that role of look at what we’re doing and how can we do it better and what can we offer. My supervisor, after things kind of working out that way, approached me and said, “Have you thought about becoming kind of like a business analyst? That was a brand new term to me. I’d never heard it before. It’s like, well, we talked about the job description and I’m like, yeah, that’s exactly what I would like to be doing. So, credit him for approaching me about that.

I had to educate myself on, okay, what does a business analyst do?

Like most folks, I went to Amazon and started looking up books. I’ll put in a plug and no one asked me to do this or anything like that. One of the books that came up, it was Laura’s book, Laura Brandenburg, “How to Start a Business Analyst Career.”

I digested that over a few days and it’s marked up everything. It gave me a good base, like, okay, this is something that I’m kind of already doing, but, I just don’t know a lot about it. I like to be very systematic and thought out about what I do step by step by step.

Just familiarizing myself with the job role that led actually looking through the website, Bridging the Gap. That’s when I learned about the program. I started reading the description and was involved because I wanted to educate myself on it.

I shared that with my supervisor and he was really impressed with the program, the outline. This actually involves work on my part as far as developing, it’s not just a study for a series of questions. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it was more than just a question and answer sort of a thing. You’re actually going to get your feet wet. You can actually put it to use. That was very appealing to us. And that really led me towards Bridging the Gap, going that route.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: It sounds like you have a lot of background experience in just how to think as a business analyst and how to start that process off. It sounds like you’ve got had a lot of really good influences, including Laura’s book, to take the program. That’s fantastic news. It’s really interesting that you started with the book and then kind of explored a bit more and went through and then finally found the program. It sounds like your management was very much on board with supporting that decision to go with the program. That’s wonderful.

TERRY MULLINS: Yeah, absolutely. Fully behind it and encouraged me to take it and certainly glad that I did.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: I’m glad that you did too because it was a pleasure having you in the program. That’s fantastic.

So you got to the program. What were you kind of hoping to achieve from the program when you actually were going to complete it? What were your initial thoughts of what is my goal to achieve from this program?

TERRY MULLINS: Really developing a process. I think it’s pointed out in the book and other conversations. You’ll find out you’re doing a lot of these things already. But I didn’t want to feel like I was doing them in a, I hate to say haphazard way, but apply this, do that, do that. Oh, yeah, we should do this. And maybe if I do…I didn’t want it to feel like it was just kind of all over the place. I really wanted to, okay, how do I approach something from start to finish from recognizing here’s a possible issue that we have and here are some possible solutions, here should be involved. Building that business case.

How do I think of something through from start to finish to where you can actually develop a product or satisfy your stakeholders? I just wanted a systematic way of approaching things. That’s really what I was seeking.

BEVERY SUDBURY: It sounds like you were looking, specifically, for the framework that is actually explored within the program. I’m glad you found it. That is fantastic.

Can you tell me a bit about your experience during the program? What things did you actually find helpful for you?

TERRY MULLINS: I’d have a hard time here just coming up with a short list because it was extreme. It was exactly what I hoped to achieve. It taught me that process. It introduced me to a lot of new concepts, use cases and user stories, agile. There was a lot of things that I wasn’t familiar with at all. I’ve been doing them somewhat in practice, but like I said, just hadn’t been taught the actual framework for it. So I really wanted to achieve that.

The program, I highly recommend because it taught me all those skills that I’ve been putting into practice since completing the course.

As far as expectation goes, we’ll find on the website what to kind of expect and things like that. It ended up being, it was work, but it was very beneficial. There was a purpose behind it. There was always a goal to achieve. It did involve time and effort on my part, but anything worth achieving is worth working for.

The very structure from start to finish, the lesson plan, really helped me, just like I said, think through those things. It was work, but like I said, I think it’s paid off quite a bit. And I’ve been putting it into practice, too. I find myself more and more, as weeks go by, going back to even my notes from class and saying, “Oh, okay, I remember doing this. I remember writing this. I remember this is how to approach that.” I’ve been referring back to it quite a bit in my job role now.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: It sounds like you’ve got a lot of good information out of the program that really did help you.

How did you find things like the support and the program, how it was laid out? Was that helpful to you as well?

TERRY MULLINS: It was extremely helpful because you have the lesson, and then the live Q and A. I try to attend those as much as possible to directly interact with the instructors. Then being able to contact you via email, work directly with you throughout the course. Emailing questions, and you were always very, very helpful.

“I’m not going to give you the answer, but think about it this way,” sort of thing. That was extremely helpful to me. You always gave me great direction. I didn’t feel like I was just there trying to work through the course trying to figure out on my own, there was a lot of support. That was great to have. Very helpful.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Excellent. Thank you for your kind words, Terry. I do appreciate that. It was a pleasure. I agree. It’s one of those things that it’s a course where you actually have to think through what you’re going to respond, and think like a BA and understand that it’s not just a response you can put down, but you actually have to analyze what’s going on and what your answers are going to be. Very good to hear that you’ve got that experience and it’s helped you manage your own working environment and where you’re going towards in the future.

If you hadn’t invested in this program, if you hadn’t invested in the Business Analysis Blueprint Program, do you think you would be where you’re at today? Where do you think you would be?

TERRY MULLINS: I honestly don’t think I would be at this, I don’t want to say skilled level, but ability in my current role. I really don’t think I would probably still be approaching things the way I did piecing things together. Like I said go back to that systematic thought through process of doing things. Things could have been done. Yeah. But it could have taken more time, more effort, more wasted effort. If I just felt like I was just trying to put things together on my own, but being able to, like you said, have that framework of how to think things through.

Just a couple of quick examples. The first opportunity I really had to say, okay, I’m going to put this into practice. I’m going to write a business case. Here’s an issue that had been brought to my attention just to document. Here’s the current scenario. Here’s why it needs to be improved. Here are some things that could be done. Here’s who should be involved and here are the benefits from it. Just outline that into a document, into a business case.

The first one that I passed on, the feedback we got was this was extremely helpful. In a one or two page document you basically summarized the current scenario, why we should even invest time in this and here’s how it will pay off. The feedback I got was just very, very encouraging. This was very, very helpful. I find myself doing that now quite a bit. Before we proceed, let’s think this through. What’s the issue? What are we trying to solve here? Here are some possible scenarios and solutions. I’ve gotten great feedback and now I’m actually getting requests. “Hey, can you write one for this?” That sort of thing. I’m already actively putting into practice what I’ve learned and through the course. It’s been extremely helpful. I don’t think I’d be doing any of that right now if it wasn’t for the program.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: It sounds like you got a lot of good skills out of the program, but also from what I’m hearing you say, you got a lot of confidence because you’re now challenging yourself to do some things that you may have not attempted before because you have that framework and those skills that you’ve kind of dabbled in through the program and you’ve gotten good feedback from the instructors and you’re now saying, I can do this because I can achieve it. So it sounds like you got some good confidence out of the course as well.

TERRY MULLINS: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s absolutely the truth. I feel like I can do this.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: You’re now an old pro at it.

TERRY MULLINS: Yeah.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Your story has been wonderful. I really appreciate what you’ve said. It really shows how someone like yourself who’s dedicated to learning and putting some time and effort and can really,  get a lot of value out of a program like this through the actual application of the skills that you read about and learn about, and then getting the feedback from the instructors and working through that whole process of thinking and doing. It sounds like you had a great experience, Terry.

TERRY MULLINS: Absolutely. That’s an understatement. I would do it over again in a heartbeat and highly recommend it to anyone pursuing this path. It will pay off.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Thank you for that, Terry. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you spending your time here today and sharing your experience with us, and telling us about what you have done. It sounds like you’ve accomplished a lot in your position, so I do appreciate you sharing that.

Is there anything else you’d like to share to anyone who might be considering moving into a BA path or even taking this course?

TERRY MULLINS: You can do it. Yeah, you can do it. You need some instruction and guidance and encouragement along the way and this program certainly accomplishes all those things thanks to you and Laura and everyone. The whole team there, they were all great. I had a great experience with everyone.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Sounds fantastic. Thank you again, Terry, and congratulations on your successes after the course. I really appreciate you sharing that with us today.

TERRY MULLINS: Thanks. Thanks Beverly.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: All right. Bye now.

What we love about having Nathan as part of The Business Analyst Blueprint® community is the experience he shares as a business owner and seeing the application of the training through every angle.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How, despite his wealth of experience, Nathan desired to strengthen his foundational knowledge to ensure there were no gaps.
• How the challenges of The Blueprint program encouraged Nathan to dig deeper and provided confidence that he was on the right path.
• Why Nathan chose The Blueprint program after his comparison of several business analyst training programs.
• The aspects of The Blueprint program that Nathan found most beneficial and how the type of delivery encouraged him to be more engaged with the program.

ANDREA WILSON: Good afternoon. I am Andrea Wilson and I am here with Nathan Relevy. We are here to kind of talk about you and your experience with The Blueprint. I hear that you are a new ACBA member. Exciting. Congratulations.

NATHAN RELEVY: Thank you. Thank you very much.

ANDREA WILSON: New to the community, right? So spring 2023. You’re fresh in the club. Glad to have you and welcome, welcome.

NATHAN RELEVY: Thank you. Thank you very much.

ANDREA WILSON: I hear that you founded a business and you’ve got a lot of things going on. You’re in the software industry and I’d like you to talk about what it is that you do. Tell us a little bit about what you do and where you’re from.

NATHAN RELEVY: Sure. Okay. I actually have an accounting background from some years ago, but moved into technology soon after. For the last 16 years, I’ve been running my business in the UK. We provide bespoke software solutions to very diverse businesses who much prefer their own tailor made set up rather than getting something off the shelf.

I do have a team which includes developers, testers, project managers and analysts as well. Although I do have a lot of experience in both development and analysis, I felt there was value in attending the Blueprint program in order to more formalize my skills in business analysis and also, I guess, generally, to see if there were better practices that perhaps I’m missing out on.

ANDREA WILSON: Wow, that’s awesome. As a business owner, I expect folks will go, okay, what’s going on here? Why are we looking at this foundational stuff? Why are we looking at the business analysis Blueprint? You gave us a taste there. As a developer having done analysis before you were looking for some way to kind of make sure you were on the right path. There were some formal skills that you needed to either gain or hone.

You visited with us and you stuck through the program. That’s exciting. That’s what you were looking to achieve. What motivated you to go for ACBA as opposed to any other certification? What brought you here?

NATHAN RELEVY: First of all, I’m always looking to broaden my knowledge, broaden my skills in the IT sector, especially as things change very frequently, very rapidly. It’s important not to rest on one’s laurels, but also to see if there are other technologies, other skills, other methodologies.

I stumbled across Bridging the Gap, the ACBA. I did some research and I looked at other business analysis programs. In particular, I looked at other accredited courses with the Institute of International Business Analysis, and the reason why I chose the Blueprint provided by Bridging the Gap was because I rather liked the way that they were teaching it in an applied method, rather than just teaching a lot of theory, and then expect you to do an exam. I think a lot of qualifications that are passed based on examinations lack the essential experiential skills as well as access to instructors that really have hands on experience. That’s what attracted me to it.

ANDREA WILSON:  You’ve kind of gone over into your experience in the program and I really want to talk about some of that. Was there any particular module of the program that stuck out for you?

NATHAN RELEVY: All of the four modules, I felt each of them brought a refreshing different perspectives to, obviously, the role of business analysis. On the one hand, I liked the fact that they were all varied and they touched on different aspects.

The interesting thing is that a run of the mill business analyst probably wouldn’t be involved with every aspect of the modules that were taught in the Blueprint course. For example, in a large company, a business analyst would be one of a number of a larger team, whereas in a smaller company, I suppose, the business analyst may have to get their hands dirty with a lot of the things that we’ve learned.

I’m a firm believer that even if you’re not going to do something yourself, it’s very useful to have an awareness of what needs to be done so that when you do go in and talk or meet with the people who are actually going to do those things, whether it’s the wireframe designers or the technical database developers, that number one, you can understand their lingo, if I can use that expression, because in my experience skilled professionals appreciate your interactions much more if you have an appreciation for what they do rather than being totally ignorant of their area.

ANDREA WILSON: I love that. We talk about overlap. You’ve you touched on developer. We talked on analysis. We even talked about owner, founder of the company. Having that ability to communicate across those different roles really brings it together and builds some trust.

One of the things we covered in multiple parts of this was having that ability to build relationships. That’s really important. Thank you for pointing out. Being able to communicate and overlap with your skill set really is helpful in building that trust and helping your stakeholders to communicate with you.

NATHAN RELEVY: Yes, absolutely.

ANDREA WILSON: Were there any challenges you faced during the process of going through your ACBA?

NATHAN RELEVY: Yes. I’m very pleased that there were challenges because if there weren’t, then I clearly wasn’t learning anything.

But, yes, it did challenge my thinking. I think, on the one hand, those delegates or candidates who do embark on the course, they come at it from different perspectives. On the one hand, they may already have the experience and they want to get some formal accreditation or recognition or qualification for it.

On the other hand, at the other end of the spectrum they may be coming at it very green and maybe are plunged into a role where they need to do business analysis and they’re thinking, I don’t have the requisite skills.

Obviously for me, I’m coming at it with somebody with experience, and I’ve also done prints to project management, and I’ve done various other courses over the years. The point is that people tend to become very staid in their thinking. You continue doing things the same way as you’ve done them before unless or until you find that they no longer work or there’s something better to do.

Despite the experience that I have and the successes that I’ve had over the years, I still learned a lot of interesting perspectives and techniques from Bridging the Gap. I found that in some ways it challenged me because I had to think differently when it came to dealing with certain things as opposed to just learn afresh how to do some things that I’ve never done before.

ANDREA WILSON: That does place yourself in a new position for learning. Applying it is very different because as you walk through things, especially a seasoned person, “I know that already. I know that already,” and then you have to apply it. You start thinking, okay, I know the message, but how do I apply the message? That can be very challenging, especially from a seasoned person who has a way of doing things. Now you’ve got to rethink it.

That was a bit of my experience too. I did go through the program and, and it was refreshing thinking that and then having that opportunity to work with instructors to work through that, I think, is a great part of the program.

I want to hear if you have any takeaways from your experience that you think would be helpful for anybody who’s thinking about going through the program.

NATHAN RELEVY: Sure. Yes, I do. I think looking, again, at those two different ends of the spectrum, for a seasoned professional, I think it’s very important that one approaches the program with an open mind ready to try different ways and different techniques to do things and resist the temptation to say I’m going to do this the way that I’m used to doing it. Because if you do, even if you do pass the program, you’ve still missed out on opportunities to learn some different techniques, which might possibly provide some improvements. Obviously for someone green to the program, it’s important that they really try and take in and embed the knowledge that’s learned.

I didn’t find the program rushed on the one hand. But yet there was pressure, which is kind of quite an odd way to, to put it. What I mean by that is I like the way the program was delivered in a piecemeal fashion. I don’t just mean the modules, but even within a module, it was actually,  done in a piecemeal way which meant that all candidates, whether they were seasoned or not, couldn’t go any faster than any of the other candidates, which meant that everybody was more or less going at the same speed with, obviously, some flexibility.

I would definitely say in terms of takeaways, read through all the material, obviously watch all of the videos, look through all the material and make sure that you understand exactly what’s being asked of you because that same skill, you need to really make sure that you read and understand the program, actually that same skill that you need when you’re listening and meeting with clients and product owners.

At the end of the day, if you don’t listen to them, if you miss even some detail, later on down the line during the project, it’s going to crop up as a gremlin that needs to be solved.

ANDREA WILSON: I love that. You wear lots of hats. You’ve done scrum master, you’ve done some project management, you’ve done some development, and now you sit here at the top. You find the need not just to continue to grow, but to look deeper at business analysis.

And you just hit the nail on the head. The listening. You’ve got to hear and you’ve got to find those gaps and knowledge. I thank you for bringing that up.

You also mentioned, I think I saw some instructor feedback and support through the program. I saw some really good feedback from you on that. Can we take a minute to discuss that? Maybe you talk about your experience there.

NATHAN RELEVY: Yeah, sure. I said in my feedback that over the years I’ve done various courses, some formal with accredited qualifications, and some not formal, or informal, if you like. Because to me, it’s about learning, learning, learning, learning, as much as I can, because I never know what question I’m going to be asked by either a product owner or someone else. And, obviously, they could be coming at it from a different background.

I said in my instructor feedback that of all the courses that I’ve done over the years, and I really have done probably more than I can count, I found the way that the Blueprint was delivered was very different from anything else I’d ever experienced.

It’s quite odd because I’ve attended courses face to face with an instructor over days, sometimes even over weeks, and I was very surprised how I could feel even more engaged with the instructors, despite them being thousands of miles away and never, literally, meeting face to face, let alone shaking hands than I’ve ever felt when I’ve actually been in a room face to face with an instructor and other candidates. The fact that I even attended instructor hours, sometimes when I didn’t need to, because I’d already completed the module or completed my work, I still found value and I did feel that the other students were not only supportive, but they didn’t hold back from asking questions. There was none of this feeling that, oh, I’m going to make myself look bad by asking a question that might be embarrassing. I think that was largely because the instructors really put the candidates at ease. There was no kind of pressure to quickly rush things. No question was silly.

I mean, there were some questions where instructors actually went on for quite a few minutes trying to explain something to the people who are asking the questions to make sure that they got it. I have to say, I think that’s quite a rare quality in some kind of instructor led course.

ANDREA WILSON: Thank you for sharing that. We did kind of talk as a team and we were so very excited to hear that because that’s one of the goals, to make everyone feel comfortable. When we have those instructor hour moments, when we have those webinar moments, it’s for us as a community to work together. They’re working hours for us to feel comfortable and really discuss what’s going on. It’s so awesome to see the learning between participants because it’s not just about the instructor. I thought it was very valuable to hear that and I’m appreciative of your sharing that today.

What would you say was an outcome for you, personally, of going through the ACBA program? This is really valuable because others may look at this and say, well, wait a minute. You’re a business owner. You founded a business. You have this reputation. You’ve done these tons of things. You’ve worn all these hats, lots of hats, as different types of analysts – operations analysts, you’ve done some support analysts. You’ve done the whole scrum master piece. What would you say is the outcome for you, personally, coming from that standpoint?

NATHAN RELEVY: I would say that there were 3 main outcomes. Number 1, increasingly, from perspective clients, but also from existing clients who are claiming, certainly in the UK, a very generous research and development tax relief available afforded for technological solutions that are innovative, the authorities are asking about the professional credentials of the experts involved on the project. So I felt a need, although I do have various accreditations and qualifications under my belt already, generally speaking, they’re from quite some time ago, so I felt the need to get some qualifications or accreditations that were more recent and up to date, okay. So I’ve ticked that box.

The second thing, as I’ve already mentioned, is to basically see if I’m missing a trick. The ways that I’ve been and the methods that I’ve been using and the techniques I’ve been using over the years, perhaps,  may have been superseded with other methods, better methods.

I’m pleased to say that the eight steps of plan that’s covered within the program really does provide a nice structure around it. I think in some ways it’s expanded, consolidated. It’s added width, breadth and depth to my own skill set.

The third reason is because, as I’ve mentioned, I have a number of staff, quite a few of whom have come from working with other companies, in some cases from large banks and large institutions. I’ve seen that there’s been a very disparate level of expertise and skills within my staff and I want to provide a level of consistency to my staff. What I’ve sought to do from the training that I’ve had is to try and implement the aspects of that within my own company amongst my other staff.

Actually, if I may add a fourth one, I’m also encouraging my clients as well, even where there is no formal product owner designation within those clients, I’m encouraging my clients to actually take on that role of product owner and an internal analyst so that when they approach us for any changes they’ve at least done some preparation, initially, and they can have a more useful conversation with me about those changes. Because the more my clients understand about the value of business analysis, the more they can appreciate what it can provide. And, obviously, in some ways that makes things easier, and hopefully smoother for me.

ANDREA WILSON: Excellent. It’s a growing community. And it’s awesome because you can have those more meaningful and effective meetings in conversations and have a more efficient use of your time. If you are thinking in terms of your process and evaluating your process and you’re able to come to the table and discuss things from that standpoint.

Before we wrap up, is there anything else you’d like to say about your experience with Bridging the Gap or anything you’d like to share at all? Anything?

NATHAN RELEVY: On a personal note, I think, Laura, as well as being an absolute amazing person herself, again, I only know her from remote meetings that I’ve had in interactions, obviously, over video, but I really have to applaud and congratulate Laura for assembling an absolutely outstanding team.

And, obviously, each and every instructor, and even the support staff behind the scenes as well. You’ve done a tremendous job delivering the program. I’m sure you will be able to maintain it.

I would be very interested to hear about any other courses that you guys are doing, although I appreciate it’s not about quantity, it’s about the quality. I sincerely think that the way you actually train people in the business analysis role is exactly, well, it’s not just the way it needs to be done. It’s the best way, best way ever.

I think I said in my feedback, I felt kind of a tinge of sadness when the program came to an end. I had such a good time interacting with everybody over the five months that, as odd as it sounds, I didn’t want it to end. Although obviously I was busy. It came to an end. But you know what I mean. I’m going to miss the instructors, miss the team.

ANDREA WILSON: Well, you’ve done a good job of connecting and we will definitely stay in touch. I love that. And you bring some excellent points out. We’ve seen you out on LinkedIn making some comments about what you do, about your business. We love the support that you’re providing to Bridging the Gap. And those were very kind words.

Laura is an amazing person and the team works really well together. It’s very cohesive, and we feel like we’re a team with the participants when they’re there. Thank you for reiterating that comment and expressing just what I feel about the group. I appreciate that.

Thank you again for coming to Bridging the Gap and for participating. I mean really participating. Because you were there. Again, you had finished your work, but you would still come to instructor hour. You shared with other participants. You took information from other participants and it just became kind of a family atmosphere and your participation was very important in doing that.

Welcome to the ACBA club, again. Thank you for visiting with us and thank you for taking the time to speak with me this evening.

NATHAN RELEVY: It was a real pleasure. Thank you very much. Andrea.

ANDREA WILSON: Awesome. Thank you so much.

NATHAN RELEVY: Take care.

James shares his journey into business analysis and moving between industries, but also his more recent expansion into leadership roles and training others throughout his company in the business analysis skill set.

One thing I found incredibly inspiring was that James was working on 4 projects when he participated in the program, and he was able to apply what he was learning on-the-job across ALL of those projects straight away.

In one example, he even uncovered a big gap that no one else had noticed, which to me is one of the hallmarks of great business analysis – and one of the many ways his employer received an immediate ROI on their investment in his professional development.

This is the kind of result a lot of our participants experience because of the practical nature of the program, and the opportunity to apply what they are learning on-the-job with ready-at-hand instructor support.

Check out James’ inspiring success story below:

ANDREA WILSON: Well, hello, and welcome to the fabulous James Dean. Glad to have you here with us. James is one of our newest ACBA participants. Welcome to the club of the ACBA certified business analysts.

JAMES DEAN: Thank you, Andrea. It’s  good to be here. Thanks for inviting me along.

ANDREA WILSON: James, tell me where you’re from, what you do, and what industry you’re in.

JAMES DEAN: I’m based in Ireland in Dublin, and I’m currently a business analyst with an actual title of business analyst. I know a lot of business analysts that you talk to, they might not have that official title. Within the business analysis domain, it doesn’t depend on your title, it depends on what you’re doing and the skills and techniques you’re using.

But I do have a business analyst title, and I’m currently working in the energy domain for a company called GridBeyond. They help different large corporations reduce their energy costs but  increase their revenue.  There’s a technical aspect to that as well, which was quite new to me.

As a business analyst, I’ve been constantly on a journey learning different things, different domains, different terminology. One of the  key points from this course or key takeaways has been being able to use that terminology or being able to use it in a certain way to help stakeholders understand what energy is and how it can be used in different projects, how we can break it down and different things  that. I’ll probably cut there because I can’t  remember what the rest of that question was.

ANDREA WILSON: No, that’s okay. You hit location. I  want to hear about your title and your industry. I mean, it’s exciting with energy because there are  many minor nuances. But you’ve worked as business analyst across different domains. What is that? This is very involved and there are many very technical things. You mentioned that you had not done energy before. Has it been totally different from you moving from domain to domain?

JAMES DEAN: Oh, 100%. Even before I went into my first professional job as a business analyst, I graduated with a Bachelor of Science Honors degree in IT Management. I actually wanted to be a dancer before I went to do anything with IT or anything computer or software related. It was actually my mom who was , “Oh, you  computers. Why don’t you just do the computer course?” And I’m  , “Okay.” I didn’t know about software development. I didn’t know anything to do with IT. I knew the basics of a computer, but a lot of people that I talked to, if you could get a YouTube video or you can access your emails, or if you could do something that they could never do they were , “Oh, you’re  good at computers.” That’s the route I started to go down.

I actually went into computing first year because it’s a four year degree. In your first year you choose which one you want to do, whether it’s software development or whether it’s going to be  IT management. Software development just didn’t click with me. It was a lot of technical aspects that I can  understand the terminology. I can read code and I can understand what the issue is, but then to write code to fix the problem. That’s where I was, no. It’s not for me.

I went down the other route of IT management, which was more database IT management. You had ITIL in there. You had a different  business management. All these different modules. It was only until I started in my first company, which was ERS, Enterprise Registry Solutions, which was in the corporate and business registry domain, completely different to what I’m doing now. I only found out that I actually was doing some sort of business analysis within college. I just didn’t realize. We were doing object oriented analysis and design. We were using state flow diagrams or sequence flow diagrams and at the time, I had no idea. I didn’t even know what business analysis was. I didn’t know what it entailed. I didn’t know much about the role. That’s when I got an interest in it. I am working with people, talking to people, communicating, helping them solve problems. That was what I  wanted to do. I  had to focus on that. I started to look into it more. I found out about the IIBA, the International Institute of Business Analysis, and I got my Entry-level Certificate in Business Analysis (ECBA).

Then from there, it was more  the recognition. When people saw what I was doing within my work, they were , “Oh, this guy can actually do the job.” More work came along. I started to go into product ownership then, a bit of business analysis and product ownership. Still, my main focus was to leverage the skills that I had  used. I never had any formal training up until then. The only guidance that I had was senior BAs that I had worked with in the company, but it was to a certain extent, because they were all being pulled left, right and center for different projects.

It was a lot of learning on the job, which was good because I was thrown deep in to the deep end and it was you sink or swim. It actually turned out well because in my first company after a year, I became the lead business analyst on my team. I was actually leading the team of different BAs and I was actually delegating tasks and doing different things. I was constantly learning.

Then I got to a stage where I wanted something new.  I went to a different industry. That was the life sciences industry. That was with Eurofins. And from there, completely different; completely different to corporate business industries. But what value I had was I took the experience from ERS and I was applying my communication skills, my different techniques that I was using, which wasn’t a lot. I was using functional specifications. I just talking to people to get to the root cause of a problem. No official techniques until I came across this course.

At the back of my mind, while this was all going on, I’ve always come across Bridging the Gap and I’ve always seen Laura post on LinkedIn and I’ve always been interested with her posts and articles and even the book, her first book, or I think it was one of her first books. I think it’s called “How to Be a BA” or “How to Be a Business Analyst.” Sorry if I got them wrong. But that was a real opening for me where it was, hey, there are actually other people that are actually doing this job. I actually thought it was just a one title, business analyst, and everyone is a business analyst. But the more that I got into my career and the more I got down my journey, I learned that people inside product manager roles are actually doing business analysis, or in project management, or they could be a product owner. There are many different titles. I think that’s the beauty that I found overall in working with business analysts, that it’s not just you’re limited to one role and doing one thing. It opens you up to  many different avenues, which then led me on to joining the energy domain.

That was a challenge for me because they wanted someone to come in who would be their first business analyst, official business analyst. They wanted clearer requirements. That was the main ask. And I was like, okay. Well I always want more. I always want to push more and I want to see how does their team work? How does their different processes work? How does the systems work?  As a BA I think you have to be curious. You have to be curious of how different systems, processes, how even people work within the company.

What are the different departments? Who do I need to talk to when I go on to different projects? It’s just been a roller coaster of a journey, but a constant learning curve and discovery of how you can apply different techniques,  especially from this course now that I have a tool set of techniques that I can go in and I know that I’m confident I’m using them even to train other employees with best practices and say, okay, when we’re creating a process flow diagram. We don’t want to just say, oh, we’re creating a process flow diagram. We want to understand why we’re creating it. And then what do we do with it? We’re using it to analyze a business process. What does it actually involve? It’s not just, “Oh, we just map out all the steps ,”and yeah, that’s it. Away we go. It’s been useful for me because it’s enabled me to show not how long business analysis takes, but to the value that it can bring if you do break it down into smaller chunks and look at it  iteratively.

ANDREA WILSON: There’s  much to unpack there because you said many amazing things that I think are the experience of business analysts everywhere. You started out with, “I started in IT and I just didn’t take to software development. That just seemed too hard.” Now look at you where you are because a part of what you’re doing as a BA is assisting with that building software. It’s not that you are writing the code, but you have the ability to do what you said, which is communicate.

You have these skills and communication was one of them. And curiosity. That’s where BA starts. You start to be curious and you start to ask questions and you dig and you dig. Exciting there. You mentioned a lot of things too. You were lucky enough to have the title of business analyst and you’ve done it for a very long time. That was time before you came to us, or even before you got to “How to be successful as a business analyst,” with Laura.

JAMES DEAN: Right.

ANDREA WILSON: You came across her material. You were connected on LinkedIn and following. Take me from there to what motivated you to seek your ACBA.

JAMES DEAN:  It was more a cost related challenge for me because at the time, when I was in my first company, I did want to do that course. I don’t think it was called, or it had the title of ACBA at the time. I think it was just The Business Analyst Blueprint program. And I did want to look into that, but unfortunately, because my company was funding my training for the ECBA, the certificate for IIBA, the whole process, it just wasn’t enough funding. I always had in the back of my mind, I  want to do that one day, I just don’t know when.

When it came to me defining my professional goals within my new company, I just said, “I’m interested in this course. It can allow me to train employees with business analysis,” because they didn’t want to hire another business analyst. They didn’t have the budget, unfortunately. I think that is the case with me companies. But if I could learn the best practices of these key modules, then we can work out a system where I can train different employees to help them do business analysis and that might then bring me value.

It  just was mentioned, and then my manager was, “Oh, okay.” It came up again, and then I had to submit  a proposal where you have to say what value it would be to the company. How is it going to benefit the company? How’s it going to benefit you?

One of the benefits was, I have this 5 year goal to become Certified Business Analysis Professional (CBAP). It was a stepping stone to help me with that. Not only because it gives me professional development credits, but also it will help me validate that I am actually using these techniques and I am actually doing a good job as a business analyst.

A lot of the time we have imposter syndrome and you think you’re doing a good job and people say, “Oh, yeah, you’re doing great.” Well, you might feel  you’re doing great yourself;  it’s giving you that extra confidence to then go on and say, “Okay, yeah, I am actually using these practices or these techniques in the best way possible.” I have gotten validation from instructors within the course. Because I had it down as a goal, it was just a matter of getting confirmed that HR or the company was actually happy to proceed with funding of the payment of the course.

It was a bit of back and forth. And then it was literally just  a call with the HR manager and she said, “Yeah, that’s fine. We’re happy to go.” I had to give a justification to say it wasn’t going to impact work schedule. I said I’ll do it in the evening and on my weekend. I’m taking it outside of work, even though it is going to be used within work, a real work project. That’s how it came all about.

ANDREA WILSON: You were able to submit justification to your company that they would fund this for you. And then you also agreed, hey, this is not going to impact my work. I can do this outside of my regular work schedule.

You did a fantastic job and you achieved your ACBA. Do you think it was incredibly difficult to do it outside of work? Or was it structured in such a way that you were able to accomplish it and still maintain everything you needed to maintain?

JAMES DEAN: I think at the start, I thought I would only have to commit many hours. But then going through each of the exercises within the workbook, I need to commit more time to this. And I think I was taking it from the perspective of: this is a project. Although I’m doing a project in work, I’m looking at it as, okay, it’s going to be iterative. It’s not just going to be  a one and done. I’m going to fill out this  this section here and that’s it. Close the workbook, James, and go away. It’s going to be, okay, I’m going to fill out here. And when I get to say section three or four, I might have to go back and reword that or make sure I’m using the correct terminology and make sure that there’s consistency there. I was thinking everything I was writing within each of the sections within the workbook is a requirement.

Making sure that it made sense, making sure that it was complete, concise, and that it could be measured and things  that. Just because of my business mindset, that’s the way I was approaching it. At the start, I was able to give a lot more time, but then before I finished the whole entire course, and I achieved my ACBA, different stakeholders within the company were already seeing the value that was being benefited. I was already being assigned to new projects or being asked to look into this. That took up a lot more of time.

When I got to Module 3, which was the data modeling, that was a little bit challenging for me because I had to juggle more time with allowing more time to commit to the actual workbook as well as not having an impact on my work schedule.

But overall, I did have a high level plan that I mapped out and it was I’m not going to watch Netflix. I’m not going to  watch TikTok or anything like that because one video turns into 20. Because I just had such a motivation from even reading the schedule and what was involved, I just had such a curiosity of how it was going to work, I just kept saying to myself “I’m not just doing it because my company is paying for it. I’m doing it to benefit me, to make me feel more confident as a business analyst, to bring more value to my company that it can benefit them that they can then benefit other employees that I can train other employees.”

All of these different things came out my mind. I just kept reiterating that in my mind not to give up, basically, for anyone that’s doing the ACBA course you can get to a stage where you might hit a roadblock, or you might come across a certain module that you’re, “Oh my God, this is just, I’m not getting it.” That can happen, and that’s okay. We have amazing instructors, Andrea, that’s there to support and guide and you’re going to get through.

I would say it’s a matter of commitments. When you commit to something, make sure you commit to it.

If you come across a roadblock or a problem or a challenge, reach out for support.

ANDREA WILSON: You said something exciting there. You hit that challenge of wait a minute, I thought I was going to need to put in this amount of time, I needed to put in that amount of time. But you started out with a plan. You said, I’m going to treat this as a project. Work projects that work.

Or I have a commitment here,  you follow that. Maybe a little less Netflix and a little less TikTok. It’ll get you down a rabbit hole. But you wanted to finish it in spite of challenges that arose with maybe a little bit of difficulties. You reached out to the instructor team and you got what you needed, it looks like.

But not only did you finish, you said you started to show value early on at work, and they started to see it. Take me there. Tell me what occurred there.

JAMES DEAN: I was using 1 main project throughout the course, but what you guys don’t know on the side, I was applying the different practices or techniques within a module to different projects that I was on because I wasn’t just assigned to 1 project. I was on  4.

There was 1 project in particular where we were trying to optimize and trade for different customer batteries within the company. Basically to make the company more money, but make the customer more money as well. We had this whole trade application or product that we wanted to build.

This project had started a year prior before I joined the company. They wanted me on the project just to, again, get clear requirements. That can be quite ambiguous. I mean, clear requirements. What does that mean? Do you mean planning? Do you mean actually scoping it out? Do you mean managing the requirements?  many questions.

When I was assigned, that’s the first thing I was, okay, what’s the scope? What’s in scope? What’s out scope? What are we trying to achieve? What are the goals? What are the objectives? Who are my stakeholders? All of these different kinds of questions came up.

But mainly, at the time, I was doing the business process analysis module, which was fantastic because I had always used business processes or process flow diagram, but not to an extent of, delivering value, I suppose, getting into the ins and outs, the inputs, the outputs, what’s involved, the steps. I was mainly focusing from what do they actually do just to understand the process, but I didn’t take a step further to actually analyze. I don’t think I understood that at the time. I’ve been using that l in my first company, but more to  say, okay, yeah, this is what they do. This is what we need to do now in the system, but that was to the extent it wasn’t the ins and outs.

With this particular project, I remember we were on many calls and many different stakeholders were going around in circles. We couldn’t understand or I couldn’t understand what the angle of that particular project was. What I decided to do was just map out a process flow diagram and literally put in all of the high level steps that are involved with this one process. What are we trying to achieve for this particular project? It wasn’t a business process, but it was more about all the different things that we need to do in order to achieve the goal of this project. What we found by doing that, or what I found when I actually modeled it to the different stakeholders, we found a gap straight away. We found a gap where we didn’t have a solution for one step within that actual process. That involved taking it away. We had to actually do some identification of solution options to then evaluate which one would be the most cost effective.

The bad part was that it had a knock on effect with the timeline and the delivery date that was set, which was strange because I’m not sure how anyone didn’t come across this. But people did thank me for pointing out that, oh, we did find this gap, but it just had a knock on effect with everything. It pushed out deadlines, it increased our scope, and it involved a lot more discussions.

But if we didn’t find that gap, and we tried to go live, we would have been in a worse position. That was one example where not the project that I was using throughout the course, but the techniques and the way that the technique was taught for business process analysis, I was able to use that on a different project to then identify the gaps that we might have missed if we didn’t actually model the whole flow and actually do me analysis.

ANDREA WILSON: You said a lot there. With your BA work, as business process, as oftentimes we find that, okay, just tell me the process and you document the process. You’ve got your flow chart and you know what the process is, but you took this a bit deeper now with the skills that you grabbed through the business process analysis module. That’s looking at the entire thing in the end, not just the process, but what’s going in, what’s coming out. And more importantly, what is the goal we’re trying to achieve?

You had this huge win. You found this gap and finding that gap allowed you to identify a timeline too. We’ve got to step back and look at this for real. And while it might not have been what your stakeholders wanted to hear at the time, it ended up being just what they needed to hear. Kudos on that early on.

I love that we talked about this because now I have this awesome question for you, and that’s, you came into this ACBA program already having served as president in an IIBA chapter. And you had already done an exam for your ECBA?

JAMES DEAN: Yes.

ANDREA WILSON: Tell me what’s different between the two. The burning question I think folks might ask if you were already certified there, why do this? I think it’s important for people to understand not just the difference, but why this growth needed to occur.

JAMES DEAN: Yeah, 100%. It was one thing that I was thinking of before I started the ACBA that was like, oh, I actually have this business experience. Is the ACBA going to be like ECBA or CCBA or other certification programs that are out there?  I think it’s a great question and it’s a valuable question. It’s a valid question to ask.

I think with ECBA, that’s mainly the structure of the BABOK guides. It’s the Business Analyst Body of Knowledge. I do get a few messages about this on different connections on LinkedIn. The way that I explain it is that the ECBA sets you up to understand the different terminology and definitions within the BABOK guides. The BABOK guide is just a guide to how to do business analysis. It’s not a step to how to do business analysis. It’s a guide of what you should be doing or what you should be considering.

But the difference with the ECBA and the ACBA, not to get them confused, is the ACBA, I feel, is much more valuable because you can apply real world experiences using these different techniques and tools that are taught throughout the course.

If I was just doing say a LinkedIn course, where you’re clicking through different videos, it’s just giving you a broad understanding of what business process analysis is. By doing the ACBA, you can actually take away what’s being instructed by the instructors and then apply it to different situations. Even if you’re not working as a business analyst or you’re not working in an IT section, you can use it within any job that you’re doing or even volunteer work. If I wasn’t a business analyst, I can see many ways that I can now bring these techniques to the IIBA Ireland chapter and to structure more to plan out.

If we’re doing a particular professional development initiative, we can scope it out a bit better. We need to identify our stakeholders. We need to understand what are our goals, what are our objectives, how do we measure those? By using the different techniques within the ACBA, it’s a lot more valuable because you’re getting that verification that you’re using them the correct way. You’re getting different feedback from different instructors. You know that you’re on the right track. Whereas if you’re doing the ECBA, it’s just an exam. It’s validating that you know the difference between the terms and the definitions within the BABOK and the different types of stakeholders. What is a project manager? What is a business analyst? Things like that. What are the key knowledge areas? I’d say that that would be the main difference.

ANDREA WILSON: Very good explanation. We hear this a lot. If I’ve done this, then why do I need this? Or help me choose between the two. It’s not that one is any better than the other. There’s value in them and there’s value in them together. You can validate that you have this knowledge of these terms and the entire BABOK. And you can say that I’ve got this passed exam, but you can also say over here with the ACBA that you have this other knowledge. This knowledge here is also important. There’s value here in applying the knowledge you have over here, and you get that opportunity to practice it with your ACBA.

JAMES DEAN: Exactly. It’s all about being able to apply the techniques in different situations. And as a business analyst, I think by doing any course, you’re not going to know how to apply the techniques to every single situation that you would come across as a BA, but with the ACBA, it does give you the core techniques and practices that you can use to then figure out how you can apply it to different situations as you work as a BA.

ANDREA WILSON: Cool. Is there anything you would like to say to anyone who might be considering doing their ACBA?

JAMES DEAN: I’d say go for it. Don’t hold back. It may seem challenging at the at the start, especially if there’s a lot of different modules or terminology that you’re not familiar with. I would say for me, data modeling, the third module in the course, was completely new to me. I did work with some system analysts or solution architects in the past, but very briefly looking at entity relationship diagrams, but I never knew, myself, how to go about creating it, how the requirements would be fed in from a stakeholder, or when you’re eliciting from a stakeholder, how you would actually elicit them to then feed it into in ERD, and then how it maps to the different techniques like the data dictionary and how that then applies to if you’re using UI software elements, how the data dictionary will dictate the data fields and the data validation and the rules, and the min and the max, and all those things that need to be considered for data requirements. It was a whole eye opener for me, but absolutely brilliant experience because I never thought that that part would be valuable as a business analyst. I always thought that would be more technical, or with the development team database. But I can see much value in the way it’s taught in the ACBA course, how we can use it as business analysts within any project that we’re doing that involves data requirements or data mapping, data integration, or things like that.

I would say, if you’re thinking of any particular module that you’re like, “Oh, I don’t know about that,” I would say, give it a go, because, for me, this course has been one of the best experiences because it’s given me the confidence to now go forward and use these techniques. Although I might have been using me of them before, it’s given me the confidence that, hey, I actually know exactly how to use them. I’ve gotten that  confirmation from my instructors. I’ve gotten the feedback. I’ve applied the feedback, and I’ve used it on a project that I’ve been working with.

It’s been a value to me to see how it’s being worked, but also within my company, because they’re like, “Oh, okay. We can see how now these techniques,” for example, my project manager, she was like, “Oh, I think I need to do  more business process analysis, or when I’m scoping out a project and you’re not involved, I can do some use cases.” It’s enabled different people within the company to not…I think a lot of times people think it’s a business analyst, and they just do all the requirements. We just write all the requirements, hand it over to the development team, and then that’s it. We go away, we go to the next project, but it’s so much more.

By doing this course, even the last module, it gives you the best practices and the eight steps that you can apply to any project, which has been beneficial for me because I’m able to now go to senior stakeholders and say, “Hey, not that we need to use all of these eight steps when we’re doing all of these projects, but this is what we should consider. We need to consider what part we’re on.” I’ll give you an example.

Last week, I was assigned to a new project where we’re building a new product for something. The first thing I asked, I was, “What are we building it for? What’s the problem we’re trying to solve? What’s the opportunity we’re trying to address?” And I still haven’t got that clear answer. That’s an ongoing discussion. Before, the expectation from the person who’s going to assign me to that project is just to start developing straight away. But hold on, we need to take a step back. I’m thinking of the 8 steps. We need to actually identify who our stakeholders are, identify our business objectives, determine our scope, we need to come up with a solution approach.

All of this, if it’s already been considered, then I need to review that documentation, I need to do me document analysis, or I need to use different techniques to actually analyze the solution approach so that we can ensure that, okay, this is the right way forward.

But until I know all of these answers to the questions that I have, we can’t just jump straight into development. It’s not the best way to do it as well because I, as a business analyst, because we work with the development team, we need to understand what we’re trying to achieve so that we can actually help the development team understand the value that they’re going to deliver by building X feature or capability. And if we don’t understand that, and we don’t understand why we’re doing something, then it’s of no value to us. It’s of no value to the team. We could have end up building something or developing something that won’t be used by the user or won’t be used by the customer. And we don’t want to be in that situation.

Although it might seem if you’re using these techniques with your senior stakeholders or seeing different stakeholders within different projects, there might be a bit of pushback. But if you explain the value by doing, not an entirely upfront analysis, but the key analysis, I would say, at the start of a project, then it enables you to bring value in the whole project because you’re going to miss anything, or you’d be less likely to miss something as you go through the project.

ANDREA WILSON: Well, well, let me just applaud you here, because what I heard you say is this non software developer person who just felt this was not their area has now gone through this program and learned to communicate better and the value of communicating with developers and even learning a little bit about data modeling without having to do any coding.

You are now able to talk to your project manager and your development team and explain to them why we don’t need to go forward yet until some key information is identified to save us from ourselves. We can build something and that’s awesome. It sounds like we have an idea of what we want to build, but we need to step back. Why are we building it?

This framework you’re mentioning, I think it’s important to mention here that 8 step framework is a part of the final module of The Business Analysis Blueprint, and that brings it together and makes you ask these very important questions before you even get started. Why are we here? What are we trying to achieve? Who are the people that need to be involved? Where is it we’re trying to go? And you felt the confidence, then, to say, “Hey, we’re not going anywhere yet. Let’s get these answers.”

JAMES DEAN: Yes, because previously I would just shut up and get on with it. But then as you get through the project, I’ve been on a project before and if I had asked the question at the start, we might have been in a situation where we are now, or where we were prior, before thinking. But now I know that we can, as business analysts, question not to be difficult, but to ensure that we’re solving the right problem that we’re identifying.

If we’re going to be building the solution, how are we going to measure it, and who do I need to talk to actually elicit the requirements? I think that’s important, the key things that are important. Because a lot of people, especially in some companies that I’ve worked with don’t see the value of identifying stakeholders. But if you don’t identify stakeholders, you could have a missed requirement and you could have a critical missed requirement or a process that needs to be included within the solution.

I’ll give you another example where I was using the use cases and wireframes module and using the different techniques within another project that I was working on. We had just created a use case diagram with the different use cases. And then the plan was to iteratively take each of those use cases and use the use case documents within the course to go through each of the flow.

What we found by even mapping out just the use cases, the assumption was made that there was only one stakeholder group involved. When anyone says it’s just one I think it’s from my experience that it’s never just one, it’s always at least two. I was like I need to verify that. I don’t like assumptions. I always validate assumptions because at least we know if we validate something, at least we’ve got our answer.  We’ve done a bit of analysis just by looking at the different use cases and how each use case flew or flowed together within the whole journey of the solution.

Straight away we found there was a gap. There was a key stakeholder that was missing, which would, it was the frequency template project where this particular stakeholder, once the frequency templates were created, they needed to use them in a different area of the system.

Because we were changing this whole solution of how it worked, it had an impact on this particular business process that was missed for the stakeholder group, we were able to use the use case analysis,  and the wireframes part of that course to actually say, “Oh, okay. We actually need to talk to them too to understand what do they need to do and how does this impact them.” By using the mixture of the use case of module two, and the last module by identifying stakeholders, it actually, then, did not increase the scope, but it identified a missed requirement, and that could have led to rework if we had got further into the solution and the development parts.

I think that was valuable by using that technique that we were able to literally see, okay, yeah, this stakeholder is missing from the solution. How did we know that? Well, because when I was using, I can’t remember exactly what step, but when you’re trying to determine the scope, and you’re identifying your primary stakeholders, and you’re understanding the existing systems and processes by looking at a particular process and how that fed in with the solution that we were proposing, it enabled me to then say, “Oh, this, this stakeholder, what about him? He needs to be considered.” That was one part that was valuable.

ANDREA WILSON: Nice. I think we’ve touched on every module of the course. That’s awesome. It sounds like you had me major impact here from every module and that has allowed you to make some very big wins with your current employer and I am looking forward to hearing more about those new wins that will come along.

I will congratulate you again on earning your ACBA.

JAMES DEAN: Thank you.

ANDREA WILSON: My hat’s off to you. Kudos for doing that and adding to your list of achievements. Thank you again, James, for visiting with us and sharing all of this information.

I enjoyed you as my own participant as a part of the program, and I’ve been watching things that you’re doing, and I just can’t wait to see what happens next.

JAMES DEAN: Thank you so much.

ANDREA WILSON: Thank you for joining us.

JAMES DEAN: Yeah, thanks so much for all of your support and guidance. Of course, I couldn’t have done it without you, so thanks so much.

ANDREA WILSON: Awesome. I’m glad to see everything you’ve achieved, James. Thank you again for our meeting with us today.

JAMES DEAN: Thank you. Thank you Andrea.

What we love about Nina’s story is that due to organizational restructuring, she found herself in a Business Analyst role for the first time and strongly desired to develop the skills needed to succeed in this new role. Her desire for knowledge led her to find Bridging the Gap content online, and from there, she made the decision to join The Blueprint® program.

In this interview, you’ll discover how:

• Nina made the transition from Product Manager to Business Analyst.
• Nina discovered Bridging the Gap and determined the structure of the program to be most impactful for where she was in her career.
• The feedback she received from her instructor has helped her in her career even now.
• Nina is now able to recognize transferable skills early, specifically relationship building from previous roles.
• Nina was pushed out of her comfort zone but her confidence increased greatly because of the stretching.

Nina was pushed out of her comfort zone but her confidence increased greatly because of the stretching.

NINA BRACKETT: There are many reasons to do this program, and everybody has their own reasons depending on their situation. Going back to the feedback and the confidence that you get from having the feedback and knowing if you’re on the right track, or just even knowing areas where you can improve. That is so valuable. And the feedback is, it’s kind of evergreen, too, in a sense that like I’ve gone back to a couple of different workbook assignments where I knew you told me something that was really important and helpful that I needed. I needed to hear that again for a project that I was working on at work.

ANDREA WILSON: So I am Andrea Wilson with Bridging the GP here today with Nina Brackett to talk about your experience with the Blueprint program. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am super happy to have you with me today. We want to talk about what you’ve done. I want to first verbally congratulate you as an ACBA participant. You have earned your status there, that certificate. Congratulations.

NINA BRACKETT: Thank you so much.

ANDREA WILSON: Long time coming, but you did it with very much with grace. Thank you. Thank you for participating.

Tell us a little bit about you. I want to know your title and the industry.

NINA BRACKETT: Okay. My current title is Senior Business Analyst. I work for a professional membership organization that serves investment and finance professionals. I’ve worked with the company that I’m with now for 14 years and have worked in my entire career serving the membership in one way or another. Actually started out in the client services, kind of member services role where I was working with individual members who had questions about how to renew their membership or how to join. Also reviewing membership applications to determine if someone is eligible to join our organization.

And then we also have a network of local organizations around the globe. I got to work with a certain subset of those organizations as well. That is really where I loved, in that role, it was like the third of that job that I loved the most.

Project Management Role

At this organization, things change a lot, frequently. And so, reorganization happened and I kind of got to the point with the membership services role where there wasn’t a lot of growth opportunity left. So I was trying to think about what transferable skills can I learn? What path do I want to  go down? There isn’t a whole lot of places I can take my knowledge of membership at this one organization and have that be useful to other employers. So I was really at a point where I’d really had to do some evaluation of my career goals were where I really wanted to go. At the time I was thinking of project management because, really, a lot of people were talking about it at the time. There are people in my organization who were getting their PMP designation and I thought, yeah, that sounds like I would be good at those skills. I think I could really shine there doing that kind of job.

Product Owner Role

After I was in that role for about a month, I would say, we had one of those reorganizations and I actually just got moved over into a product owner role. So, my very first job working with IT and basically being the kind of go between the new product manager and the IT delivery team.

And unbeknownst to me at the time, writing user stories, doing the use cases, working up wireframes, defining the acceptance criteria, all of those things were part of my job. I was learning on the job. It was really a very hectic, crazy time for me in my career because I was just learning so much and it was all kind of confusing because it was IT related and it was new and I was just, I was there doing the work and spending a lot of time on the job too. As fate would have it, we had another reorg two and a half years later, and I ended up in a product manager role.

Product Manager Role

What I learned about being a product manager is that there are two different parts of the job, at least at my organization. There was the kind of the detail oriented, getting into the solution kind of work. And there was the strategy and the vision for the product and where do we want to go in the future kind of work.

After doing that for about a year, I just went to my boss and I said, “This part over here is not for me. I really want to  work on the details. I want to  work on defining and explaining the business process or the use case. Those are the things that I’m really much more interested in. Those are the things that I find myself spending more time on.” And it worked out that they still wanted me to continue in that role. And the product manager, more strategic side of things, they found another person who could come in and fill that role. So, that is how I ended up being a senior business analyst.

Moving to a Business Analyst Role

But when I took that role, I didn’t really know what a business analyst did. I said I thought that it was what I wanted to do because of it being kind of more in the weeds and getting into details of things. I started going out looking for things I could learn. I did some LinkedIn learning. I did some YouTube videos and random things. And I came across a couple of Laura’s videos and those were like a godsend.

When I found out she had Bridging the Gap and she had this whole program, it was like maybe five days before the deadline that I found out about, the registration deadline, that I found out about the Blueprint program. And so within a span of five days, I had to figure out should I pay for this myself? My employer will pay me if I pass, but am I willing to take that risk? And I was, because I just so hungry for the knowledge and, really, just to build back my confidence of feeling good about the work I was doing and knowing that I was doing a good job. And I hadn’t been getting that for quite some time for that. That’s how I got here.

ANDREA WILSON: That’s how you got here. That’s quite the journey. I have been reviewing things and I see that you started kind of with account manager. You did some business relationship. I hear product owner, I hear product manager or some project management, and you found your place with business analysis and that is, awesome

And then you had an opportunity to do some different training with LinkedIn. You had a chance to do some YouTube. And then you stumbled upon the Bridging the Gap. So what is it about the Bridging the Gap product that was different for you that made you make the decision to go for it?

NINA BRACKETT: So, the first thing I purchased from Bridging the Gap, I can’t remember the exact name, but it was a template packet. It was like eight or nine different templates. I was like, wow. It was like revolutionary. An idea to have just like this, you know what each of these things means, and you can fill it in and you can apply it to any project. It’s like, wow. So, that was the very first introduction to what kind of products Bridging the Gap is producing and putting out there.

There was also a manual that came along with that, that said, this is how you use each of these templates. And I was like, wow, maybe I need to learn some more about this.

The testimonials and the way that the program was structured, the fact that you can get, you have homework, it’s not just a test. You have homework. You have to present a project to an instructor and they gave you feedback. I was like, yes. That’s what I want. I want someone to tell me what I’m doing wrong. What am I doing right, where can I improve? And so that was really the selling point for me, was just having, even though it wasn’t a face-to-face dialogue, it was the feedback and the back and forth through the workbook assignments that really sold me on it.

ANDREA WILSON: Sweet. It sounds like you started with the template bundle. There were some instructions there. You had an opportunity to see a little bit of the training, and you decided, okay, I’m going to go for this. Still a little bit nervous about whether or not you were going to pass. But you did it. You took a plunge and I really want to  hear about your experience then. Once you went through those things and you went to the program, you have some feedback from the instructors; it sounds like the structure of the program worked for you. Let’s hear a little bit more about what it was in the program that stood out for you.

NINA BRACKETT: Oh, wow. I think it was the cycle of assignments that kept me engaged in going. It’s been a long time since I’ve been in school. And I have a little ADHD, so focusing on one thing, like really focusing on one thing for a while is pretty easy. But then, to get it to use that same amount of strength to focus on the second thing and the third thing and everything else, it took a little bit more effort. But with the structure of the videos, the web,  the pre-recorded webinars, or not webinars; they are pre-recorded class sessions. And then the live webinars with the instructors, they just solidified the information that Laura did in her videos. Just the whole structure of that really kept me going, kept me engaged.

The other people in the class, again, I kind of felt like I wanted to call them up and be like, “Hey, let’s talk about these problems together.” But there was not a platform in which to do that unless you, I guess, unless you brought it up to someone in a webinar.

ANDREA WILSON: So you hold a certificate in product management and you moved on to do your Certificate in Applied Business Analysis. I’d like to know a little bit about your feelings about the program. You started out with the template bundle and it answered some questions for you and you were hungrier for knowledge and you, in a very short period, found out about registering for the Blueprint and decided to take that plunge. I’d like to hear about your experience there and what stood out about that program for you.

NINA BRACKETT: Yeah, so the thing that really stood out for me and what I was really hoping to gain by going through the Blueprint program was to gain transferable skills that I could use on my current job, as well as future jobs potentially as well as just really feeling confident about the work I was doing, that I knew if I was on the right track. Because up until that point, I didn’t really have any colleagues that I could work with on business analysis. I didn’t have a framework for it. And so understanding the differences between a use case and a business process, it seems pretty obvious now, but before I started the program, that was just like a different language for me. So, the transferrable skills and the confidence building is really what sold me on taking the program and really what kept me going throughout it because I was just learning so much as I was going through each workbook.

ANDREA WILSON: Nice. I love that you mentioned confidence. We hear that a lot and feedback is really important. That’s something that you don’t always get when you’re at your day-to-day work, and then sometimes you wonder, “Geez. Am I doing a good job or am I doing the right job?” Especially when you’re new. You’ve done some things that were very transferrable because you management and business relationship. You had this opportunity early on to build relationships with stakeholders. Nothing new to the program and you’ve had an opportunity to see what stakeholders were and what to do with them. So tell me your experience there. I want to  know how you feel about those desired transferrable skills when you realize, “I’ve already got some of these.”

NINA BRACKETT: Yes. It was really eye-opening in that way too, because the working with stakeholders and digging to the root of a problem and determining what the business objectives are and understanding the inputs into the process and the different users who are going to go through, those were all things that I had done, but I didn’t know that I did. So, it was really eye-opening. That has given me a lot of confidence too, and I can look back on some of my previous work and have kind of two different thoughts.

The one thought is, I didn’t know what I was doing, but I did work that mattered and I probably didn’t go about it the easiest way or the fastest way, but I got it done and this is what we produced. And the second way is to say, “Oh, when I did XYZ feature, and we were having these discussions, I should have brought the stakeholders in from the business to have this conversation with our delivery team so that that I could help connect the dots in a meeting instead of trying to translate from this side to this side and then get just how things get lost in translation, which often happens.

ANDREA WILSON: Yeah. So you gained some techniques throughout the program. Having these meetings where you can bring everybody to the table and get it all out. That’s awesome.

One of the big things about the program is the structure and trying to get you organized. We have that framework in place where you learn about here are the steps that you could take. And some of them are iterative. But here are the steps you can take to get organized and get off in a good path. And you realize you’ve already got some of those skills.  You already know. You’re already talking to stakeholders, you’re already getting down to the nitty gritty. Those details that you like to get down into. Well now you can be more organized about it. So I’m glad that was kind of a dawn of realization for you and you were able to say, “Hey, I’ve already got this skill. Now I can organize myself and really hit the ground running.” Senior business analyst thing. Awesome.

All right, so, we talked about some feedback and that you were getting from instructors and one of the things I saw was your mention about the structure of the feedback and the building confidence. What outcome have you had, professionally or personally, now that you’ve gained that confidence? Is there anything that you’d like to share about that?

NINA BRACKETT: I think that probably because it pushed me outside of my comfort zone, like the first day comfort zone step was posting the certificate on LinkedIn and tagging the people who I felt were really instrumental in helping me through the program, and Bridging the Gap, as an organization and putting it out there for the world to see. All of my professional connections, people who I told I was doing the program, people that I didn’t ever come up in conversation, people that I worked with at previous roles 15 years ago, people that I worked with and having them congratulate me, that felt really, really good.

But I was very scared to hit the “post” button on that because it’s just not a thing that I do normally.

ANDREA WILSON: Would you do it again given the feedback?

NINA BRACKETT: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely I would. Yeah, for sure.

ANDREA WILSON: Fantastic. Is there anything else you’d like to share? Is there any particular module in the Blueprint program that stood out for you or anything else you’d like to share?

NINA BRACKETT: I talked to so many people at my job. My manager, at the time in particular, about how much I was learning as I was going through. I remember after the first workbook I told her, I was like, if I learn as much from the next three assignments that I did from the first one, I’m really going to be out there kicking butt. I just felt like there was so much that, like the pieces were coming together and things were making so much more sense. And,  like you said, putting it into a framework in an organized way has really helped take a lot of stress out of my day-to-day. That’s one area where I always really struggled in all of my roles, how do I structure my day, and what do I do? How do I go about getting the work done? Having the framework for the Blueprint for the business analysis work, it’s really just helped me just really feel much better on the job.

ANDREA WILSON: Sweet. This is your opportunity. Is there anything you’d like to share with anybody out there who’s thinking about the Blueprint or thinking about further training? Is there anything you would like to share with them? Any tips you’d like to give to them?

NINA BRACKETT: Sure. So, I think that there are many reasons to do this program and everybody has their own reasons depending on their situation. But I think going back to the feedback and the confidence that you get from having the feedback and knowing if you’re on the right track, or just even knowing areas where you can improve, that is so valuable. And the feedback is, it’s kind of evergreen too, in a sense that I’ve gone back to a couple different workbook assignments where I knew you told me something that was really important and helpful that I needed. I needed to hear that again for a project that I was working on at work.

There are so many ways, so many little ways and so many big ways that this program can help people with their business analysis career.

ANDREA WILSON: Awesome. Thank you for that, first of all. It’s always nice to hear that. That “a-ha” moment. It’s great to see it. We have these instructor hours. We have the big webinars where we break down what we’re going to do for each module. The instructor one more is where we get to have that one-on-one. And the participants have an opportunity to talk with other participants, and the synergy that builds from that feels really good from the instructor, and it’s really, really nice to hear from our participants that those opportunities to connect, not just with the instructors, but also with each other builds confidence.

And then further, once you’ve submitted your applied learning; it’s not a test. You’re applying what you’re learning doing these projects and you get the feedback. It’s really pleasant to hear that you are still referring to that and that it’s still helps you to move forward. So, thank you.

ANDREA WILSON: I want to say thank you for talking with me today. Taking the time to do this and agreeing to meet with us and sharing your experience is very valuable for anybody that might be considering to do this. And just hearing about your success. I’ve seen some of it on LinkedIn and I’m kind of celebrating, your little cheerleader over here. We were celebrating you in the program. So thank you so much for speaking with me.

NINA BRACKETT: Thank you, Andrea. Thank you for the opportunity.

How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills

(And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes. You’ll create work samples vetted by experienced instructors and have the opportunity to become a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

What we love about Amelia’s story is that when she was faced with a crossroads in her career, The Blueprint program provided her the tangible skills to succeed in her new role. As a technical writer at the top of the pay scale, Amelia was laid off from her role when her boss encouraged her to pursue business analysis.

After some research, she discovered Bridging the Gap and signed up for The Blueprint program. Throughout the program, she did whatever she could to find projects and ultimately completed the program.

Once she completed the program, she was offered another technical writing job and a business analysis role. With the knowledge she gained during The Blueprint program, she was able to negotiate her salary and job title and land the job as a Lead Business Analyst.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How Amelia got creative to find projects to complete during The Blueprint program without working as a business analyst.
• How Amelia made the decision to change career paths and grow into a business analyst.
• Amelia’s biggest takeaway from The Blueprint program and which modules she uses daily in her career.

For those who like to read instead of watch, here’s the full text of the video:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome, everyone. I’m here with Amelia McHenry today. Hi, Amelia.

Amelia McHenry: Hey.

Laura Brandenburg: I am so excited. Amelia is one of the very few course participants I’ve actually met in person and gotten to hug, so that’s a special thing for me, and I’m excited. She’s had a lot of success since she joined The Business Analyst Blueprint® last year, and we really wanted to just share some of her story and some of the amazing things that have happened in her career to both inspire you and give you some practical strategies that you can use to achieve those results yourself.

Amelia, maybe just take us back to—it was January last year, a little less than a year and a half ago when you were thinking about joining The Blueprint. Where were you in your career at that time? What was your role like? What was going on?

Hitting the Ceiling as a Technical Writer

Amelia McHenry: I had been a technical writer for about 15 plus years, had gone, in the last 10 years of that, gone through a bunch of mergers and acquisitions of companies and splits and all kinds of weird funky business stuff. The last one was a split from the company that merged with another company.

About nine months after that, I got WFR’d from a job, and it was a job that my boss did not want me to go, but the company said, “She makes too much money,” because I was at the top of the pay scale for technical writers. Being a new business, they wanted to cut salaries and bottom-line type of things that businesses do. I was like, “What am I going to do? I had this great job making some decent money, and they’re not going to want to pay me that anymore because it’s at the top of the scale.” So, my boss told me that I could get into business analysis, and I was like, “Really? I can do that?”

And she’s like, “Yeah.” She started telling me a little bit about what it was that I did that would constitute as business analysis. So, I started looking at that and looking at jobs to maybe do that in the time that she helped me revamp my resume to show that.

I got a job as a contract business analyst, but I wasn’t sure what I was doing. I wasn’t confident, I wasn’t all this. So, I started looking online, and I found you and was like, “Oh, I need this.”

I made the jump of getting The Blueprint, which was all of the classes, and learned so much. It was invaluable, just absolutely invaluable, and it has helped me jump from there into being really confident in what I’m doing. Having the community there to assist when I had questions and…so, that’s where I was, was just this total…I was a tech writer. I was at the top of my financial game, and now I had nothing and was like, “What am I doing?”

Laura Brandenburg: And you were in this contract business analyst role, though, right?

Amelia McHenry: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: I kind of remember that you were…it didn’t quite feel like a business analyst role.

First Business Analyst Role – Not Quite As Expected

Amelia McHenry: Yeah. I mean, it was doing requirements, but it was these…yeah, it was weird because when I was doing the classes, there was this one project that I was like, “Oh, I can do this. The process stuff,” and then the project got put on hold. It was like I didn’t have anything else that I could do that with. It was like, “Ugh.”

So, I had to go outside of my business analyst role to find projects to work on for the homework, which helped my husband out because he had stuff that he needed to do, and it was like, “Yeah.”

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and I think that’s so powerful. You could have the title but still have this constraint in your work experience that you couldn’t actually use the skills in your job. So that must have felt very…”I finally got this title after this pretty scary experience of losing my job, but now I’m not quite sure what I should be doing, and I’m not even allowed to do the things that people are telling me should be business analysis.”

Amelia McHenry: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Like, “Where is this going to go? What does this look like in three to five years?” Yeah.

Amelia McHenry: Exactly. It’s been…yeah, it was kind of crazy. It was…yeah. Kind of crazy.

Laura Brandenburg: You took the jump, the plunge through all of that, and you joined The Blueprint. What were your expectations going in?

Amelia McHenry: Just to learn. I just wanted to know what business analysis was because I’d heard the term, I’d worked with the people, but I didn’t understand what it was. What was the job? I just had no clue, and I didn’t want to be a fraud in saying…you know, I put this on my resume that, “Hey, I’ve done this,” and I’m like, “I don’t know what this is, but my boss said I did it, so I guess I’m going to say I did it because she said I did it.” [Laughter]

So, the expectations were about learning what the job was. What’s the terminology? What’s the experience (which is really great that this class gives)? You get practical experience that you can speak to in a job interview. You can say,

• “Yes, I’ve done processes.
• Yes, I’ve done wireframes.
• Yes, I’ve done data mapping.

Yes, I’ve done these things, and I have a clue.” It may be this big, but I’ve got a clue. Learning the terminology, feeling legit.

I felt legit afterwards.

Volunteering to Finish the Course Work – And Building Valuable Experience and Confidence Along the Way!

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Let’s talk about this because you’ve alluded to helping your husband and how…because this is a challenge that we do have that part of the real-world experience. There are tons of benefits that come from it, but when you feel like you can’t do it in your job, or you don’t have a job, people are like, “What do I do? How do I finish the course?” I would love to hear how it came up, even, that you found out that your husband could use this and created that role. It was a really unique, innovative way to create success.

Amelia McHenry: I was looking around my job and just going, “I thought I had this one project that I could do this with. It was going to be great.” I got excited about it, and then it got put on hold. Basically, I just came home to my husband and said, “I need to find something that I can do process work on. Do you have any processes that you need to be checked out and worked on?”

And he was like, “Actually, yes I do. I’m doing a disaster recovery revamp,” because he’s the infrastructure director at a healthcare company that he’s in.

They were re-looking at their disaster recovery process, and I was like, “Perfect. Let’s do that.” Normally, he and I bonk heads when we’re trying to work on work stuff, but it actually worked out really, really well because it was like, “I’m in this role now. I’m not your wife. I’m in this role, and I’m going to ask you all the questions. ‘What’s the process? Who does what? When do they do this? What if that doesn’t happen, and if this happens?’” Going through all the happy paths and then all the funky things that could happen, and it worked out really well.

He shared that with his boss, and his boss was like, “Oh, my God. This is great. Fabulous. Let’s get that in the documentation.” We had meetings with them, as well.

So, I got to talk with his other people, and they were like, “Thank you so much for coming in. What do we owe you?”

I’m like, “This is fine. I just want the experience.” What was the next one? The wireframing was the next one. I’m like, “This is my next project. You got anything else?”

And they were like, “Yeah, we’ve got the marketing group setting up our website and revamping that, so here. Work with them.”

And I’m like, “Awesome.” So, I got the first two of the sections of this course, I got to work with them. They got improved things, I got to learn.

They knew I was learning, so it wasn’t, “Oh, why don’t you know this? We’re paying you for this. Rah rah.” It was this really great relationship that we had. Then the other thing was that my husband is also a musician and putting out albums just as a hobby. So, for the data mapping and getting all that big data stuff together, I used his and my youngest daughter’s albums as customers who are buying. The customers. Do we want their address? How does that match up to PayPal? Getting all that data mapped out. That was just an internal hobby that we used to do this data mapping work, and man, talk about a rabbit hole. That was…

Laura Brandenburg: You think, “Oh, this is so simple. We’re just shipping out some CDs,” right?

Amelia McHenry: Yeah, I know. That was such a serious rabbit hole, but it brought a lot of clarity to what we’re doing, and even though it’s a hobby, yeah, he’s trying to get some money out of it. It’s a little money, side gig thing. Not much, mostly spending up, but it’s fun, and it was great experience for my daughter because that’s the business she wants to go into. She’s going into the music business, so it’s learning. “Oh, you’ve got to capture this. You’ve got to talk to these people. You’ve got to capture your email stuff. You’ve got to capture your vendor stuff, what you’re sending out. All these things that just…” It makes it make sense. That’s where I found my projects. Like I said, just a little hobby thing at the home. You can do that. It’s business experience.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. That must have been—after that feeling of being in the role but uncertain—that must have been incredibly validating, right? To do it and to…you had three different, very different experiences where you were able to apply these skills, so you had lots of things to talk about and to really appreciate the depth of it.

In a New Business Analyst Role – Blowing Them Away with Powerful Questions

Amelia McHenry: Right. Then when that contract was over, I got another contract, which was a little more in line with the business analysis. Because of taking the class and going through those things, I was really able to just jump right in and say, “Hey, this is what we’re doing. Oh, you want to do process work. Okay. Here we go. What is this? What is that?” All those questions that you ask. Then, there was one—I don’t know how many people catch this, but you have some questions in one of your videos that talk about getting to know the…I just lost the word. Getting to know the domain. How do you get to know the domain? How do you get to know what the project is about? I wrote them down. I played the video, wrote it down, stopped it. I captured all those questions.

Laura Brandenburg: I’ll have to create a checklist for that.

Amelia McHenry: Oh, they’re fabulous. They were fabulous. I wrote that for the project that was into on my next job, and I put that out to them. I said, “What are your answers to these?”

And they were like, “Oh, my God. These are great questions.” And this is Fortune 500 company that has their act together when it comes to this stuff. I brought in these questions, and they were blown away. My experience and their estimation jumped tenfold, hundredfold, thousandfold because I just had these simple questions that you asked. “Ask them about this.

• What’s the project?
• What’s the financial gain?
• What’s the measurement you’re going to have?
• What’s this?”

Thinking about all these things that they think about in the back of their mind, but they don’t settle in. That blew their minds. They were like, “Oh my God. We’re so much clearer on what this project is. Thank you for that.” I mean, just those questions alone helped them define their project and get it clear in their minds what was going on.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. I really think that as BAs…questions are our superpower. Asking the right questions at the right times. Yes, you had the questions from the course, but you also asked them in the right context to the right people at the right time, it sounded, with the right framing. So, you created this…I love how you talked about that jump. I was going to say, “This perception of a jump,” but it really wasn’t that. I think it was a perception in your head, but you really were in that space. You were adding value at that level.

Amelia McHenry: Yeah. I still talk to a couple of the people from that contract, and they were like, “Man, I wish we could’ve hired you on, but it was just a contract thing for this one little project.” But they loved it. I mean, I’m on Facebook with them now, and they love me. They’re like, “How’s your job doing? We want to get you back here.”

I’m like, “Yeah, well, you know I’ve got a job now.” [Laughter]

Up-Leveling to a Lead Business Analyst Role at $90k/Year

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, tell us about that.

Amelia McHenry: My contract ended, so I was looking for another job. I had two interviews with two different companies. One was going back into a more senior technical writer role, kind of managerial type of thing, and it’s something that I could’ve gone back into and done with no problem. It’s like, I know that job like the back of my hand. I can do that.

Then there was this other job. They weren’t paying as much as the technical writer one, but it was the one that I was like, “Oh, it’s a business analyst role, and this would really stretch my learning because it’s a completely different industry than what I was in.” I was in healthcare. I know healthcare like the back of my hand. I can do that in my sleep.

This is in the auto insurance industry. So different. You’re still dealing with federal stuff, but it’s so, so different. And I was like, “I kind of want the BA role, but the money over here at the tech writer thing is so much better.” I was hemming and hawing about it. They were actually creating another position at the other side for me because once they found out my experience, then they wanted me to do a center of excellence for technical writers. I was like, “Yeah, that’s awesome. I was stringing along the guys who were offering me the job because this one was really cool, too, and it was more money.

When they found out that it was more money, the BA job went to their human resources and said, “We want her. She’s being offered $90,000 at this other place. Let’s bump it up.” So, they bumped up their offer by $10,000.

Laura Brandenburg: Wow.

Amelia McHenry: And a jump in position. It was just a business analyst. They gave me the lead business analyst for the $90,000, and I was like, “Oh, yeah. I can’t string these guys along anymore. And these guys I’m still waiting on to hear if it’s even going to happen, so I’m going to go with the eggs in the basket and go with this.”

And it’s been really, really good. It has definitely stretched my abilities. I’ve gotten into doing gap analysis and just learning this new industry domain and using those questions again.

What is this all about? What are the metrics? What’s the big picture of why we’re doing what we’re doing? I’ve been really learning a whole lot about that.

There have been a couple of days that I’ve been like, “What did I get myself into? I can’t do this.” Then, I just breathe, and I go back, I read my notes from this course, or I call and go into the Facebook group. Then, I’m like, “Okay. Oh, yeah. Okay.”

Back into the stride of things. It’s been really good in stretching what it is that I’m capable of, concreting the business analyst training that I’ve gotten, exploring other avenues within that training. It’s like, “Oh, well, how about this over here?” Gap analysis is something that is new. That’s something that I would love to take a course on. Wink, wink. [Laughter]

Laura Brandenburg: All right. I’ll get on that.

Amelia McHenry: You know? Because that’s a different way of thinking, as well, but it has opened me up to a lot of new things and solidified the training that I do have. They’ve been really, really happy with me so far. I jokingly went in on one of my one-on-ones, and I was like, “So, are you going to fire me yet?”

And they’re like, “No way. You’re great. Bring it on. Keep bringing it.” But it’s kind of interesting because one of the questions in the interview was, “Are you afraid to ask the stupid questions?” and I went, “No. Not at all. That’s kind of my job.”

And my boss was like, “Fabulous. That was the right answer.” Yeah. I’m going to ask the stupid questions, right?

Bringing the BA Confidence to the Job Interview

Laura Brandenburg: Can we talk a little bit more about, whether it’s the interview or the…how that came to be? Because, obviously, they were super excited to hire you, right? You were in a position of strength in that negotiation, which is where we all want to be, as job seekers. So, can you just walk us through how that…what do you think created that point of leverage for you? What was it that they were looking for, and how were you able to position yourself and your skills?

Amelia McHenry: I think some of it was personality. I tend to be kind of gregarious and bubbly and unashamedly me. So, I think that’s part of it, but I think the other part was that I could speak to what they were looking for, that I could use the terms when they asked me about what tools I’ve used. I mentioned Balsamiq, and the guy’s eyes just got bright and wide, and he’s like, “You had me at Balsamiq.”

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. It’s not like you knew that going in, right? There was a certain amount of how things fell into place.

Amelia McHenry: Yeah. I didn’t have a clue about that. Being able to talk about creating the processes, the documents, or refining those with both my husband’s work, with the job afterwards and being able to speak to the things that I worked on through the training and through subsequent positions, and I was able to speak to it with confidence.

It wasn’t like I was like, “Well, I kind of worked on this project and um…” It was, “Yeah, I worked on this project, and we had this problem, and we did this, and this was the solution.”

I think one of the biggest questions that assisted in them really wanting me was he brought up a meeting that he’d had, and he said one person, a key stakeholder, was getting defensive, or very adamant, in that he wanted something a certain way. It had to be this certain way. Come to find out the guy was cursing out people. He was yelling. He was like, “No, we’re doing it this way.” But he was very diplomatic in the interview. So, he was like, “What would you do with a person like that?”

And I sat, and I thought. I thought back to your trainings, and it was like…it’s not about the “how.” It’s about the “why.” Why does he want that thing? What is it that he thinks he’s going to get out of that “how” that the technical people are going, “There’s no freaking way you’re getting it?” That where the consternation was.

It was like, “What is it that he’s trying to get to?” Trying to figure out what it is he’s trying to get and maybe there’s a different way to get there that the technology people can do.

So, he was trying to get a particular API, and the technology guys were like, “That’s not going to work. That just doesn’t fit in this API framework or whatever.”

It’s like, “What does he think he’s going to get out of that?” It’d be asking him those questions. What is the endgame, and can we find a different bridge to get there? I think that was another question that he really just went, “Yep. That’s the person,” because it’s not about the “how.” The “how” can happen anyway.

It can be if you want to build a bridge, you can build it out of steel, you can build it out of wood, you can build it out of stone. How big does it need to be? It’s not that it has to be this stone bridge. It’s just that it needs to be a bridge. What do we got right now? We’ve got wood. We don’t have stone. So, we can build it out of stone. “But it’s got to be a stone bridge.” No, it doesn’t. It just needs to be a bridge. I think that was another huge question that he just was like, “Oh, yeah.”

Laura Brandenburg: Just to reflect back to you what I feel like what you’re representing there, there are few things that people miss. One is that you took a moment, like you said, “I took a moment to think about it.” And I think sometimes in interviews people think, “I’ve got to have this answer right away,” and so they just say the first thing that comes to their head. It’s okay to stop and think.

Amelia McHenry: Definitely.

Laura Brandenburg: You’re a gregarious person. It’s still okay to stop and think. [Laughter]

Amelia McHenry: Yeah. It’s okay to just go, “Hmm.”

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. You need a minute, and it’s okay, in a meeting, too, to do that. We put so much pressure on ourselves just to be in this go-go-go. Some of our best value is in that just stopping and thinking and giving yourself space to find the answer.

The second thing I just want to reflect back to you, which is so beautiful, is you have internalized. You keep referring to this training, which is awesome. I love that it’s had that impact, but you have internalized that into a mindset of being a BA, which has allowed you to connect those dots. I think that’s because you’ve applied it a few different times and found new ways to apply it. So, it’s just become part of your way of thinking, and that will serve you for a long time.

Amelia McHenry: Yeah, it will, and thank you very much.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah.

Amelia McHenry: Because I go back to when I lost my job being workforce reduction and going, “Really? I can do that?” to this, “Really. I can do that. It’s such a huge transformation of confidence that…yeah. I really do owe it all to you and your training. I mean, I would not be here today if I didn’t have that.

You not only taught me the skills, but within that, gave me the confidence that I could do it because I was able to do it in the class, and it came back with great comments, or, “Here. Tweak this a little bit.” That’s the other thing: the coaches. Coaches are great. I got great coaches, and I was really glad to be able to meet some of the coaches.

Laura Brandenburg: Paula.

Amelia McHenry: Paula. Yeah. I was really glad to meet her. That was really fun, to meet her. The coaches are fabulous and gave great feedback. When I got stuck, especially in the data mapping—that was the one that I got stuck with the most. I was like, “What?” I’m analytical but not that analytical. So, their feedback during that process was really invaluable.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, they are, and their heart is in it. The instructors are amazing. They want your success.

Amelia McHenry: You can totally tell.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you. It’s always good to share the love with them, too. I get to do these interviews. I hope that they watch them because they get to hear, so that they can hear about all the awesome things that they’re helping create in the world, as well.

Amelia McHenry: Oh, yeah. They do a great job of it, too. They’re on it. Really good feedback, really good suggestions to improve, really good cheerleaders on, “Hey, you did this really great.” and really good cheerleaders on, “You could make this even better.” It felt good getting their feedback.

Some Tips on Finishing The Blueprint Program

Laura Brandenburg: That’s amazing. So, I know you had some concerns about finishing. I think this is something that holds a lot of people back. What helped you have a breakthrough on that?

Amelia McHenry: That’s a good question. I have a tendency to start things and not finish them, and I think that just comes from fear of success. I actually have a really big, huge fear of success. “My life will be so different when I’m so successful that it’s scary. It won’t look like what I’m comfortable with.”

How did I get over that with this class? Because this is one of those classes that I’ve actually finished, that I’ve gotten over that. Where would I be today? Yeah, how did I finish that? I think I cried a lot, and…I honestly don’t remember what I was going through at that time.

Laura Brandenburg: And you persisted.

Amelia McHenry: Yeah. It was one foot in front of the other. It was just a determination of, “I spent the money. I’d better finish it.”

Laura Brandenburg: There’s a huge value of spending the money. [Laughter]

Amelia McHenry: Yeah. “I spent the money. I’d better finish this. I’m so close.” That last…it was the data mapping. That was so hard. It was so hard. If that had been the first, I probably wouldn’t have finished because it was like, “No, too much.”

I think it was just something that I had a feeling was really going to help me in my financial situation, in my skill sets…and just get it done. I don’t know, really, how good my last assignment was that I turned it, but I turned it in.

Laura Brandenburg: And you passed. You’re here.

Amelia McHenry: I passed, and I’m here, and I got the certificate, which, I guess, is a message of: don’t worry about perfection; just get it done. Those coaches are great, and they will give you feedback. “Hey, try this one. Question about this. Did you really mean this, or did you mean that?” That assistance of getting through helped me just be like, “Okay. I’m just going to turn it in. It’s a mess. I know it’s ugly,” and then getting the feedback it’s like, “No, it’s actually really good. It’s on point.”

It was like, “Oh, really? I did good? Thanks.”

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. And just to congratulate you for that success, too, and that it’s achieved the things that you were looking for it to achieve. It started with you pushing through that resistance, for sure. The resistance happens.

Amelia McHenry: Absolutely, and a lot of my fear of success is that I’ll lose everything. Because I’m successful, everything else will go away because I’m in this box. Yeah, no.

That little box just got bigger. Everything is still in it. It’s all still good. It just got bigger, which is something I need to remember when I get up to that wall of success again. “Oh, I’m going to make it. I better not do it.” It’s like, “No. The box just gets bigger. Everything is still in the box. It just gets bigger. There’s more room for it.”

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, that’s awesome. Thank you so much for all of this. It’s just been a beautiful…it’s been beautiful to hear your story full out, but before we close, are there any last tips that you would like to share with somebody following in your footsteps?

Amelia McHenry: Take the course. [Laughter] Take the course because there’s so much valuable information in it. Do the work, ask the stupid questions, take that calculated risk. This is a calculated risk. Your training, jumping into the BA role. Even if you don’t take the course, jumping into it and asking the stupid questions and taking that calculated risk is going to be invaluable.

Joining a group like Bridging the Gap on Facebook. It doesn’t have to be that one, but this is a great group. But joining a group of like-minded people that are striving for the same things, that have your back and are going to support your growth. Join that. Take that risk. It’s worth it. It will improve you dramatically. I’m living proof.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. And I’m just so excited to hear about everything that’s happening, and even seeing the BA you’re going to be three, five years from now and how awesome and everything that comes from here. Thank you. Thank you for sharing.

Amelia McHenry: I’m happy to share. Absolutely.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Amelia.

Amelia McHenry: You’re welcome.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

What we love about Dave’s story is that he was at a crossroads in his career. With a background in software development, he was trying to decide if business analysis was the career path he wanted to continue down or if he wanted to seek out another career.

Once he identified some holes in his knowledge, he found The Blueprint® program and was able to fill in the gaps and find more fulfillment in his work.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How Dave was able to apply the concepts learned in the program immediately to his current role on an agile software development team.
• The value of timely instructor feedback and assistance, and how integrating the feedback was actually one of the best parts of the program because he immediately changed the way he was doing his job.
• Why the days of pulling his hair out over user stories with the developer team and product owners are now behind him, and the insights he gleaned from no longer seeing user stories as an analytical tool.
• The excitement Dave now has in his work and in his skills as a BA and his ability to use his talents in his future endeavors.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Good day. My name is Beverly Sudbury. I’m an instructor with Bridging the Gap and I’m here today with Dave Gallant, who is from Ottawa, Ontario, and he’s working currently as a business analyst for the Federal Government. Today, Dave is very kind to join us. Tell us a little bit about his journey and how his participation in The Business Analysis Blueprint® program contributed to his success. Thank you, Dave, so much for being here. I really appreciate you sharing your story today.

DAVE GALLANT: Thanks Beverly. Glad to be here.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: I am quite excited to hear about your story. So, let’s begin. How about we take a look back at 2021 timeframe before you really started thinking about The Business Analysis Blueprint program, and was kind of looking around for things, where were you at in your career at that time?

DAVE GALLANT: Well, 2021, I was kind of buried in a bunch of requirements. In my job, I’d been a BA for about a year and a half at that point. I’d written a bunch of specs for product, and frankly, the specs just weren’t, they were okay for a new BA, but it was a pretty difficult process going through the development cycle with those specs the way they were.

Because it was a waterfall type of methodology for the actual development, once we had started the development, it was not like we could rewrite the specs halfway through very easily. It was a real challenge the first half of 2021. It really got me thinking about how I was going to change things. I thought even well, was I going to stay as a BA? Was this going to work out? I needed something different. But I did figure out that, no, this is the job I want. I just didn’t know quite how to do the job. There was a gap that I needed to fill. So that’s where I found, that’s where the Bridging the Gap program came in.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: We literally became your bridging of your gap on your understanding of business analysis.

DAVE GALLANT: Yeah.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: It sounded like you had some really good achievements there that you wanted to capture and really worked towards being a BA, or I should say, not even just being a BA; being a better BA to really expand your career. What were you looking to achieve in your career as a business analyst?

DAVE GALLANT: I was looking to get a solid foundation as a BA with a classical set of tools that I could use for a long time. I’d come into the job as a former software developer who kind of knew, instinctually, parts of the job. I knew how to draw process diagram to some degree and how to do wireframes to some degree. But in a way more that a software developer would’ve done such thing, not a business analyst. There was the whole analysis part of business analysis that I didn’t really know much about. That was what I was really trying to come out with was a much more solid better ground to stand on as far as the analysis work that I needed behind the user stories that we were writing in this agile environment. Because before I just wrote the stories and kind of did the analysis ad hoc on the fly, and that just produced inconsistent results. Sometimes it was okay, but sometimes it was not that great.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Understandable. I came from a very similar background as you, starting out as a developer and kind of moved my way through and said, “I kind of like this work.” I agree. You have to kind of change your mindset. It sounded like you were looking for a good set of skills and some really good tools to take away. Is that what made you decide to go with the Business Analysis Blueprint?

DAVE GALLANT: I looked at the material fairly carefully, I think, on the business analysis and The Blueprint website. I just thought it was quite compelling. I thought that there was going to be a fair bit of depth to the course, and there was going to be a lot in there.

I particularly, saw that even people who had quite a bit of experience thought it was very helpful. That was like this is in the right zone of training. The program was about the right length. It did move through the material quickly enough as well that I was able to like use it on the fly to actually produce results, as the course went along. It was a nice integration point, too, because the course, time is relatively limited outside of work hours for these kinds of things. So it was nice to actually be able to use a fair bit of my material from my real job in the program.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Wonderful. It sounds like you really researched and really found that this was a good fit for you.

I know that I had seen some feedback that you gave about the course and you said you really liked how the course progressed through the different modules and how you had different workbooks to complete and you had support from instructors. Can you give a little bit more explanation about what you felt was beneficial about the program and the support you received?

DAVE GALLANT: Sure. I think the most beneficial thing, particularly about the way that the workbooks are set up is that just like the real job, the workbooks are an iterative process. You kind of look at them, and I learned not necessarily quickly, but I learned as I went through the workbooks that the more time you had to do multiple passes through the questions and look at the results, the better the result was going to be, and that’s very much like the real job. That’s really informed the way that I actually do the BA work is not expecting to get it right the first time around, and that you typically need to engage the stakeholders, for example, multiple times. You might see things different ways in different meetings, even with the same people in the same topic. There was a good correlation between the way the workbooks are set up and the way the real job is.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Yeah, it sounds really good. The instructor feedback was very beneficial to you as well?

DAVE GALLANT: Definitely. I mean, I think particularly, in the workbooks that I did revisions for and workbooks in the modules two and three, which where, in hindsight, I think they were the most challenging, at least they were to me anyway. I think it’s particularly in the revision workbooks where the feedback and the course corrections were extremely valuable because they actually just showed me where the real gaps were in the way I was doing the job. That was extremely.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Yeah, sounds great. Was there any other aspects of the course that you really found? I know there are times we have instructor hours and we have webinars. Was there anything else that you would say was really valuable to maybe a participant who might be coming and looking at the possibility of taking this course?

DAVE GALLANT: I would say, I mean, those things were very important and it was well worth attending the instructor hours, but also just the fact that you could email anytime if you have a question about something. There’s a good sense of a community of people, and it goes beyond the program. I think that was very valuable that you sort of build these connections in the program, and then you could also reach out later if you have a question. It provided a lot of structure. Overall, the whole thing just provided a lot of structure that I needed in a job that is being done entirely remotely at this point. My workplace is nobody’s back at a physical office yet. It did provide that level of structure throughout the entire six month program and, of course, a bit beyond.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Sounds like you gain a lot of skills and a lot of confidence in reaching out, and now you’ve got a community of people to help you out. I think that’s very beneficial to any BA coming up and it’s really good to network. I agree with you. Those are beneficial items to have around you.

Now you’ve successfully completed. You have your ACBA certification. Congratulations on that. Very wonderful to hear. How are you now utilizing those teachings in your day to day work?

DAVE GALLANT: Well, I think it’s, as Laura said in the closing remarks, or at least I either read it or heard it. I don’t remember which, but just talking about how you kind of get all the pieces together through the course, and then you just have to kind of ride the bike and that’s kind of where I am. You just have to say, okay, which of the tools in the toolbox do I need to use this week to do this thing? And you just get it. That just takes time and practice to understand what tool you want to pull out to do the analysis work or whether you have enough analysis done to do the drafting work, in this case, for like the deliverables for the user stories.

I’d say that I think over the next year, there’s going to be a lot of me referring back to the course material to go read over a section or a piece where I need to use that particular tool or skill. And it’s not, necessarily, going to be immediately in my mind. I’ll have to refer to the materials which I’ve got the curriculum in my little sort of collection so I can go and look up a piece and stuff. I think that’s where I am now. Just kind of using the pieces as I need them, and then I’ll look more up as it comes up.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: It sounds like you’ve got a really good toolkit based on the curriculum from the Blueprint program based on what you’ve learned and what you’ve experienced, and the feedback that you’ve got, which is fantastic.

Tell me a little bit about your career now. How have things improved with your work, and how have you progressed?

DAVE GALLANT: Well, I think the biggest thing is just the increase in confidence in that I actually now have a sense of what to do for the analysis work. The days of pulling my hair out over user stories with the developer team and the product owner are, hopefully, to some degree behind me. I mean the truth is software development is very complicated. I really did need that formal training as a BA to be able to say, here are the questions that need to be asked so that we can figure out how to move the project forward. I think that’s probably the biggest thing going on for me is just knowing. I’ve learned what questions to ask which helps a lot.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Sounds like your communication skills have improved greatly, too, from taking the course and learning like, as you said, what to ask and when. I think that’s going to be really beneficial to you and I hope you agree with that.

DAVE GALLANT: For sure.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Again, now that you’ve completed and things are going really well in your career and you’re looking forward to a very bright future, and many advantages that you have now, what would you say is some advice for someone that’s coming up that may see your story in this interview and say, “I want to be like him. I want to do what he’s done.” Do you have some advice for up and coming BAs or even BAs that are in the industry now and are maybe struggling a little bit like you did?

DAVE GALLANT: Sure. I think the biggest thing is, as we said at the beginning of the course, it is a commitment and you do need to block the time. You do need the time every week to work on it pretty much. You get some time off in the course, but definitely I would say one thing is you do get a sense, very quickly, of how much is involved when you start the course and don’t be thrown off by it. It is a lot. There’s a lot in there, but it’s also highly valuable and I would say that it was worth every bit of effort that went in. It is well and truly justified in that it was a great result at the end. I would say that there’s a lot to be said for just being positive to it. But when you get feedback and you do a revision workbook and you’re like, “Oh crap, I’ve got to go redo, X, Y, and Z,” but that’s actually one of the best parts of the program. I thought that was absolutely the best part, actually. It was just the fact that you got so much feedback and the revision workbooks, if you have to do them. It was just a huge learning opportunity there. You could almost immediately change the way you’re doing part of the job in your real job, if you happen to be employed as a BA at that time.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Sounds great. I agree with you. It is very beneficial when you can have that feedback from someone and you can reflect on it and say, “Wait a minute. I agree. It’s a different way of maybe approaching something or a different way of looking at something. And now let’s look at it a different way.” And you can reframe how your approaching a particular problem or a particular challenge that is put in front of you. So it sounds like you really do have a lot of great skills going forward and you really have a lot of good advice for people up and coming. Sounds like you’ve got a lot of really great value from taking the course and dedicating your time to the investment of not only the work, but also the understanding of what was presented.

DAVE GALLANT: Absolutely. You know, I would say there were some pretty big takeaways for me from the program. One of them, working in an agile software development environment, is that a user story is not an analytical tool. That was a huge thing for me, because I kept doing that. I kept wanting to say, “I’ll just do the analysis where I write the stories.” I was like, “No. Don’t do that doesn’t make sense.” That was a big win. And also the way in which BAs learn to use language in a very precise way to specify requirements and to avoid a lot of headaches down the road. That was, I think, the other major win from just this like bullets at the end of the course, or highlights, I guess I’d say.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: Sounds great. Yeah, you really, really do have a great look on this and a great amount of takeaways from the course. I’m very happy that you completed and you did so well and you found such great value in the course. I really appreciate you sharing that with us.

DAVE GALLANT: Oh, no problem. My pleasure.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: All right. Thank you so much for your time today, Dave. Is there anything else you’d like to share with anyone out there?

DAVE GALLANT: Well, my advice is if you’re thinking about it, just go for it. I think the course is well worth the time for sure. It does take a bit of time, but it’s worth the effort for sure.

BEVERLY SUDBURY: All right. Thank you so much, Dave. Really appreciate having you here.

DAVE GALLANT: All right. Take care.

How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills

(And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes. You’ll create work samples vetted by experienced instructors and have the opportunity to become a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

What we love about Alison’s story is how The Business Analysis Blueprint® training program equipped her with hands-on experience going beyond the theory-based knowledge she had prior to the program.

In this interview, you’ll discover how:
● The Blueprint® showed Alison to recognize what she didn’t know and to fill in the gaps in her business analysis knowledge.
● Alison’s confidence has grown allowing her to no longer second guess her decision, but rather to move forward with certainty.
● Alison was able to find instant success at work through the activities she completed throughout the workbook exercises.
● The Blueprint® took the theory Alison already knew and made it practical and useful for every day application.

ANDREA WILSON: Fantastic. Well, hello and welcome. I am Andrea Wilson with Bridging the Gap and I am here with Alison Whitwood, a participant from the Spring 2022 Blueprint program. Welcome, Allison. So good to see you.

ALISON WHITWOOD: Thank you.

ANDREA WILSON: I’m excited to have you here. I have some questions. We want to hear about you. It’s a great time with you, so I’d like to get into a little bit of detail about your experience.

Before we get into that, I’d like to know about where you were, where you started before The Blueprint program.

ALISON WHITWOOD: Okay. Thanks. Thanks, Andrea. So yeah, I’m Alison. I live in Sydney Australia and I’ve been in IT for forever, for 30 years or so in my IT career. It started off a lot of years was technical and then in the last kind of 10, 15 years or so, I noticed that really for me, I didn’t want to go down the full on techy jobs. They seemed a little bit kind of boring, I thought. I think I was just expanding myself as a person and just was more interested in people and what they wanted and just having those conversations. Also the technology that I was working with that I was an expert in was dying. Nobody was using it anymore and I needed something different and I didn’t want to relearn something more, again, I didn’t want to go down another technical avenue. I kind of realized that being a business analyst and a technical business analyst, in particular, was something I kind of wanted to do.

I ended up, actually, getting a job with that title without really knowing what I was doing. A contract had come to an end and I’d been working with some with partners and they asked if I wanted to come and work with them. “Yeah, actually I do.” My job career was usually one job somehow led to another job which somehow led to another job. I haven’t had an interview for a long time. This job ended up being a, they said, “What do you want as your job title?” “I don’t know, Technical Business Analyst actually.” And that’s what it was, but I don’t know if I was actually doing it. What I ended up doing was some technical support, but a lot of talking to the clients that we had to find out what their problems were, what their pain points were, what they were trying to achieve, and then either bringing it back to our technical lead, or if I could do the technical stuff myself. I felt like I was the bit in the middle, that if it was too technical, we get what I call techie Steve, our technical lead, involved. If I could do it myself, I would, but it was more like, “Hey, what are you trying to do?” And, “What would that give you?” “How would that help your business?” Those kinds of questions. That kind of became what I really fancy doing, what I was really enjoying.

Then I got my redundant, got retrench, whatever that’s called. Again, I jumped from where I’d been to working with the people I’d been working with in the previous, like external people that I’d had in that previous job. I said, “Look, sorry, I can’t continue your project. I’ve just been made redundant.” And they said, “Oh, well, that’s their loss. Why don’t you come work for us?” So, yeah. That’s what I did. That was about a year ago. I’ve just had a contract extended again for another year in that organization. That’s where I am.

What I am now, a technical business analyst, and it’s quite varied. It’s quite a varied job. It’s for a mining company in Western Australia. So I’m working remotely. So I’m in Sydney, which is on the east side of Australia. The rest of the company is in Western Australia, in Perth, right at the other side of the country a few thousand miles away. They are two hours behind. My working day is just a little bit further on than there’s. I work kind of 9:30 until 6:30, and it’s a whole mixture. It’s discovery. I’ll listen, go and find out how these guys use data, what their pain points are, where is the data, how do these applications go away, and give a PowerPoint present. I’ve done that. I’m working on that at the moment.

Or it might be, put together some approvals matrix for a backup policy. Okay. So, no idea how to do that, so I go and talk to some people to find out what’s involved in that. It’s varied. And the other part of it is still a bit of technical working on a software asset management platform that I kind of know inside out. Doing a bit of techy stuff as well. That’s what I do.

ANDREA WILSON: Nice. Okay. So technical, I hear technical and I’m hearing the IT. You’re working with an IT domain. You’re doing some technical work, but I’m hearing so many business analyst things. Right. Tell me how you got to the Blueprint and what brought you to that program?

ALISON WHITWOOD: That’s a great question. That’s easy to answer. I was in this technical business analyst role going, actually, I don’t think I know what I’m doing here, and it was quite scary because I’d asked for a salary and they gave it to me. I was like, “Oh my God. I feel like such an imposter.” I’ve got massive imposter syndrome. I didn’t know that I knew what I was doing. That’s what made me want to come to the Blueprint.

I actually did the self-study one first. I think it was called The BA Essentials. I did the self-study one, which was helpful, but it also showed me all the things I actually wasn’t comfortable with and didn’t know about. I actually wanted a live interactive course where I could talk to people, get feedback and get something. I needed something practical. I didn’t want any more theory. I’d done some theory business analysis courses in the past, I needed hands on. Like, what do you do? What do you do? How do you do these things? That’s what got me to the Blueprint. I didn’t just launch into this program on a whim. It was, okay, I’ve seen some articles. I’ve done the self-study. I’m starting to understand over a few months these are the gaps in my knowledge. This is where I need more experience. This Blueprint’s going to going to fill those gaps. So I signed up.

ANDREA WILSON: Nice. Okay. We are there and you were motivated to do the program. Was the ACBA certification kind of the cherry on the top or what you were looking for, or was that just kind of the extra thing, since you knew that you wanted to do this practical application?

ALISON WHITWOOD: If it wasn’t part of it, would I have still done it? Yeah, maybe. But it was the clincher, I think. Having the certification is nice. It’s nice because I can show all the people, even if they don’t understand what it is I’ve got, I’ve got something. It was probably the clincher. It wasn’t the only thing. I needed the practical experience and information and feedback. I needed that, but having the certification that says, yeah, you’ve got this, that was nice.

ANDREA WILSON: Nice. I saw some celebrations out on LinkedIn for you. So definitely it worked and served for that. So congratulations.

I want to talk a little bit about your experience in the program. I hear you mentioned earlier about what you were doing before you started the program, and I hear all these BA things. Then I heard you say, “I wanted to know what I didn’t know,” or that, “I saw some things and I learned that these are things I needed to know. I was already doing some of them. I wanted to hone that skill.” So I want to look at that. And let’s talk about that a little bit about some of your experiences. Was there a particular module that really stood out for you or something that you really honed in on?

ALISON WHITWOOD: I’ll tell you the one that I’m using the most is the first one on process flow diagrams. I seem to be doing the process flow diagram every day at the moment. I don’t know why I’ve gravitated towards that. It’s something I’d done before, but I didn’t feel very good at it. I didn’t really own it. I could do them, but I didn’t know whether they were right or whether what people needed, but now I seem to be knocking out process flow diagrams easily, and they are well received. That’s probably the one that I’ve gravitated to most since doing it.

That’s not the one I thought I would. I thought I’d be most interested in data, the data modeling. I’ve not really used that yet. It’s been process flows.

ANDREA WILSON: Sweet, process flows. What’s different about it now? You were doing this before and now you’ve really started exploding with it, right. What’s different about before and now that makes you lean towards that business process?

ALISON WHITWOOD: I think it’s because I know that I know what I’m doing, whereas I didn’t…this is maybe just my confidence levels. They’re now much higher. But before, when I was doing a process flow, I had this weird idea that everybody else knew how to do that and I was pretending. And they don’t, and they didn’t, they really didn’t. I was just a bit scared of doing something and having it, I don’t know. It’s probably just my confidence. I was scared of doing something and having somebody else say, “Oh, that’s rubbish.” I don’t know, just confidence, just simply confidence in that area at all.

Now I know what I’m doing. I can tweak, I think this is maybe the difference; now I know the ins and outs of it. I can tweak it and change it and know that it’s still useful. Whereas before the course, I didn’t know what I could easily change. I don’t know if that makes any sense.

ANDREA WILSON: It makes perfect sense. I’m hearing confidence. I’m hearing my confidence level changed. I could do it. I wasn’t sure I was doing the right thing. And now I know that I’m doing the right thing and I know that making changes to it going back, there’s going to be iterations. It’s okay. That is something that’s normal.

And it’s funny. Because I think I had kind of the same experience, right. I would do this and I could make a diagram. I can make a diagram. Right. I think I know what I’m doing. But once you get in there and you start to apply and you go back and forth through the program and you recognize those nuances, right. There are iterations and that’s expected and you’re not going to get it right the first time, and how to have that dialogue. We walk through in business process analysis, the discovery. We had that meeting agenda. We talk with folks and we help them to map out their process and help them to own their process. The confidence, for me, changed drastically. So it makes perfect sense what you’re saying.

I’m glad to hear that. I’m glad to hear you have that confidence and you’re owning it.

ALISON WHITWOOD: Yeah. I’m owning that rather than having to own their process, which you can’t. I mean, you can’t do that and it’s nice to be able to.

I’ve been doing with my boss this last week; he’s been wanting me to map out the whole project management process. I can go into his head and pull out bits that I don’t need to know, but I can extract them out of his head. Then we get this absolute mess of a brainstorm. There are lines and boxes everywhere. Then a couple of days later, I’m going, “So, is this what you do?” And he goes, “Yeah, that looks good.”

ANDREA WILSON: Listen to you. I’m hearing you talk about techniques and brainstorming and pulling those things out. That’s awesome. It sounds like you are definitely using some of the skills that are taught and that you’re feeling very confident about that.

Did you face any challenges in the program? Was there anything that you just kind of hit a wall?

ALISON WHITWOOD: Well, I don’t think there was. I really enjoyed the course. The timelines, sometimes, I think. There were four modules. I think every single module is a two or three module lesson, and then you get a week or two weeks to hand in the coursework. Pretty much every time, I’m getting to a week out from you’ve got to hand this coursework in. I’m going, “Oh my God, I’ve got no idea what I’m doing. I’m never going to do it. I’m going to fail.” And then it’s like a few days later, “Oh, oh yeah, I’ve got this.” And I turn something in. I think it happened every time. I think by the fourth time it happened, I was just going, “Oh yeah, this is just what I do. It’s all good.” The time pressure was one thing.

The content, I didn’t struggle with the content and really enjoyed the content. There were a couple of times, maybe, in that final module, the BA Essentials one where I didn’t quite relate to what was going on in my workplace. I can’t think of any examples off the top of my head, but just sometimes in the course works, in all of the modules, it was like, yeah, I’m doing this, but what I’d do in reality is just a little bit different, but that’s okay. I just need to do the coursework. Sometimes reality and coursework were a little bit, only a little bit out, but not a huge amount out.

ANDREA WILSON: Awesome. That’s one thing about business analysis. Not everybody’s going to do it the same. Even if they’re working on the same thing, they will do it differently and each time it might be done differently, and that’s okay. That’s one of the takeaways from the course. It sounds like you worked towards managing your time well and got through each module and figured out how to manage your time. And you got in sort of a cadence about getting your workbooks completed. That’s  good stuff. I had a chance to work with you there and I really enjoyed it.

ALISON WHITWOOD: Yeah, you did. Your feedback was awesome by the way. I’ve said this a few times. I want to say it again. Your feedback was awesome. It was so useful for the coursework, but it was useful for my BA career. It’s probably the best thing about the course because of that interaction with instructors like you. Having that feedback, it was probably the absolute gold of the course.

ANDREA WILSON: Awesome. You just answered my next question. I was going to ask what was your biggest takeaway from the experience.

ALISON WHITWOOD: That was the biggest.

ANDREA WILSON: The feedback, the way it’s sewn into the entire course and the practical application is phenomenal. And having that opportunity to talk with the participants via instructor hours, the webinars, with them being able to get back through the coursework and have those conversations, and then through the email. There’s a lot of support that’s built into the program. It’s nice to hear that was a big takeaway for you.

ALISON WHITWOOD: That’s good. Actually, can I just rewind back to one of your previous questions about what did I find difficult in the course? And it’s not a bad thing. It’s just the way I think the cost, this is my interpretation of how the module unfolds. You don’t get all the information and you’re meant to put things together without all the information and then your next lesson, there’s more information. I wasn’t good at that. And I think in my BA career, that’s the biggest lesson I need to learn, personally. I don’t feel comfortable with gaps in my knowledge. This is why I waited till about a week before the module coursework was due, because I’m going, I need to wait for lesson three until I’ve got all the bigger picture and then I can put a workbook together. And that’s probably what I did. It might not be the best way of doing it, but that’s what I did. I think it was an intentional teaching tool to say, “Hey, you can still do BA work without knowing all the information.” And that’s something I personally struggle with.

I am techy at heart. I kind of like to know stuff before I do something. That was my biggest struggle, I think, with the program and in my career, and I’m getting better at it.

ANDREA WILSON: Good point. What you’re referencing is that the content that comes to you comes in what we call a drip. You might get your module one materials and you’ll get part one the first week and you’ll get part two the next week and part three the following week. That’s to keep folks from being overwhelmed. That’s to help you to stay focused on this little piece at a time.

But I am also in my major domain as IT and I like to have the whole picture. But as a business analyst, you don’t get it right off. Oftentimes, you’re just kind of dropped in the middle of things and go figure it out. You only get a little bit at a time. That is also kind of a teachable moment as you mentioned that you’ll get these parts of things and you get just enough and you work on what you’ve got and you get your questions together. You start building your questions for the next piece, and then you get that next bit of information and you can sew those things together. Now you’re ready to build your next piece. You’ve got more questions. You sound like you were hungry for that last bit. And okay, now I’ve got all parts of it. I can bang out this workbook and submit this workbook in. And I feel that way in projects all the time.

I am that techie. I want it all. I want all the information. I want to flip through the whole book and get it all before I start working build in that time so it’s not so overwhelming for everybody to get all the information at once.

ALISON WHITWOOD: Thank you. That’s really well put. And, for me, if I think that’s the tech in me that I don’t want to produce something where if there’s a gap in my knowledge, what I’ve done is somehow not right, because when I get more information, it’s going to make what I’ve done somehow wrong. And that’s something that I’ve just got to learn more to just go more with the flow of things. Because there isn’t a black and white, right or wrong. This is business analysis. Things morph and change and evolve and that’s great. Actually is good. And it’s okay. That’s just my little fear. “If I do this and it’s wrong, what’s going to happen?”

ANDREA WILSON: That whole perfectionist. I do that all the time. That’s what helps to make us feel like imposters but sounds like you’ve gotten over a lot of it.

ALISON WHITWOOD: I’m aware of it. I’m aware. I wouldn’t say I’m over it yet, but I’m certainly aware. I’ve got awareness on this.

ANDREA WILSON: Well, I’m glad to hear that the program did give you that and help you to feel like you’re ready and that you can apply what you know, and you’re comfortable with going to say, okay, there are some gaps here. We need to fill these gaps. And that you feel confident in your questioning, asking so that you can say, okay, here’s what I need to know. Here’s where the gaps are. I’ve identified them through things that we need to talk about. Let’s fill these gaps. Let’s redo this diagram. Let’s redo this process flow and make sure that we’ve included everything. I think that’s a major win for you and I’m so glad to hear that you’ve kind of put that together and that you’re using that.

I don’t want to hold you much longer. I do want to kind of talk about where you are, professionally, since you started the program, or since you finished the program. It sounds like you’re super lucky and you’ve gone from position to position just because of your skillset. Where are things and what’s next for Alison?

ALISON WHITWOOD: Thanks. Well, the course finished at the end of June and my contract was up at the end of June. I think mostly because of doing this course my contract has been extended for 12 months. And if anyone’s in the contracting world, a 12 month contract is gold. That’s where I am currently. I’m in the same job as I’ve been in for the last year. And now with a security of a 12 month contract. So that’s where I am. And I keep looking. I keep looking. I’m just looking. I’m just looking to see what else is out there, but nothing. I really enjoy where I am. That’s me. I’m staying where I am, but with more confidence and I think this is probably what’s different. I’m kind of owning the BA because there’s nobody else who’s officially a BA in my organization. It’s not a big organization at all. There are not that many other people doing that work. Sometimes I wonder if there’s actually a gap in the organization, because there hasn’t been any BAs officially there. Sometimes I think there’s not really a gap for that work. It gets kind of done-ish by other people, by project managers, by, or just, I don’t know. It doesn’t really get done. But now there’s a bit more space for that business analysis work to be recognized, which is nice. So that’s where I am.

ANDREA WILSON: All right. That’s awesome. Hey, maybe they’ll bring on some more and you’ll be training those folks. It’s great to hear that you are growing and you’re flourishing and what you’re doing that you’re feeling confident. Super-duper takeaways from your opportunity or what you created as opportunity.

Congratulations on your additional 12 months. That’s exciting. Maybe the next 12 months will fall right there for you. That will be great to hear. Please do let us know if that happens.

I do have one final question for you and that’s anything you’d have to say to anyone who might want to follow in your footsteps? What would you say to them?

ALISON WHITWOOD: If they were thinking of taking on the Blueprint course, I would say absolutely do it. I think even if you are a seasoned business analyst, do it anyway, because then there are so many extra things you’d learn. And also you would know that you know it. That was the biggest takeaway for me was knowing that I know it. So yeah, just do it really. I don’t think there’s much of a reason not to. I’ve done quite a few training courses over the years. Some technical, some professional, some personal, and I’ll tell you, this has been the most useful. It really has. If anyone’s questioning, just do it really.

ANDREA WILSON: Do you think that’s from the practical application? I know you mentioned earlier and I meant to ask you about this with the theory versus the practical application. Any comments that you’d like to leave for anybody about the difference between the two and how has it impacted you?

ALISON WHITWOOD: Yeah, it’s the practical thing that makes it so valuable. The theory you can read books. I mean there are books on business analysis. You can easily learn the theory, but it’s the practical that makes this course so valuable. Each of the modules I related to my job, which meant my job got the value immediately of the learning. It’s practical. It’s useful. It’s instantly useful. That’s the biggest element of the course that makes it so powerful is the practical.

ANDREA WILSON: Sweet. That’s an amazing compliment to Bridging the Gap. I can’t wait to share that with the team. I can’t wait for folks to be able to see this. I thank you so much for your time. It was wonderful having you as a participant and then being able to follow up this way. I do look forward to hearing an additional 12 months or something new that you set out to do and how you conquer that.

Thank you so much for being with us today. Okay.

ALISON WHITWOOD: Thanks, Andrea. Thank you. It’s a pleasure. Thanks.

How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes. You’ll create work samples vetted by experienced instructors and have the opportunity to become a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

From Program Instructor to Program Manager and now to Director of Operations, we are going behind the scenes and sharing exactly what this transition has looked like for Paula and the Bridging the Gap team. Laura shares more about her decision to hire her first full-time employee and how Paula has added immense value to the company in just a few short months. 

In this interview, you’ll discover how: 

• Laura and Paula initially connected and how their relationship has evolved over the years as Paula’s involvement with Bridging the Gap has grown. 
• Paula’s personal goals aligned with Laura’s business goals which made the decision to hire Paula as the new Director of Operations a no brainer. 
• The transition into being the first full-time employee of Bridging the Gap is going for Paula and how it’s freed Laura up to serve the business even better. 

Laura Brandenburg: Hey there. I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap here today with Paula Bell. Hi, Paula.

Paula Bell: Hello!

Laura Brandenburg: Paula just started as our Director of Operations. When we’re recording this, it’s close to four months ago. By the time you see it, it might be five or six months. We thought it would be fun to record a video about what it’s been like from both of our experiences.

This has been a new role for Bridging the Gap, a new role for Paula and I know for me hearing from other business owners about how they’re building their team is always really exciting and illuminating. I think, also, we have a lot of business analysis business analyst professionals in our community, hearing how that set Paula up for her path to Director of Operations, or if you’re just considering working for a smaller company or exploring different career pivots, it could be really interesting to hear about her journey into this role as well.

We were just going to sit down and chat. We have a few questions and topics we want to cover, but we’re going to just see where this goes.

Paula, we thought it would make sense to start with how we met originally. When we’ve tried to talk about it, we’re both like, “Oh wait, I’m not really quite sure exactly,” but I know it was at a BBC or for those, you know, Building Business Capability conference several years ago now. And I think you were part of a contest, right? You were trying to take pictures with all the speakers.

Paula Bell: Exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: Is that how you remember it?

Paula Bell: I had to send you that picture because when I was looking at pictures, that one just popped up. But yes, it was, maybe, I don’t even know. I can’t even say what year. I’m not even going to try and say what year it was when we met at BBC, but one of the contests that they had so that you could win some sort of gift card was to take pictures with all the different speakers. You were one of the speakers that year. I took a picture with you, but I really believe where we connected was I remember it was the year the Iowa chapter was the Chapter of the Year and we were about to take a picture by the banner.

I was sitting at a table and you were walking over and we just started chatting. That’s initially how it began. It just started with us just chatting. Now what we were chatting about, I can’t tell you, but I know we were chatting about something.

And then from there, that’s all I know. I don’t even know the rest of the story, how we even stayed connected or anything, to be quite honest.

Laura Brandenburg: My recollection, because I can remember the table that you were. I don’t remember the Iowa part, but I remember that. I feel like I came away from that BBC and that connection feeling like I was going to talk to you about being an instructor for Bridging the Gap. Which is really the first way that we officially worked together.

Possibly, at that time we were offering a variety of career mentoring programs as well. It might have been supporting me of those. I feel like you had prior experience in training and instructing as a business analyst. And that just blew my mind. I was like, “Wait, wait, I could have your help with this.”

Paula Bell: I don’t even remember how that connection really happened though. I don’t remember if it was you emailed me or if we connected on a social media platform or what have you. I do remember the initial conversation about being an instructor and what that would be, but I had no idea from there, which was probably about six years ago, I’d be here where I am today. That wasn’t even in my mind, at that point in time.

I almost really looked at being an instructor as simply a side hustle in a way, as a way give back to the BA community, make some extra money. My kids were small at the time, so it was just a good way to bring in some extra income.

Wow. Giving back to the business analyst community, but how it’s morphed since then has been pretty amazing.

Laura Brandenburg: I wish I could say I had the foresight to know we’d be where we are today, but I also had no clue. I think at that time Doug was already an instructor when you joined. I can’t remember.

We had a bit of an instructor team, but definitely not the team that we have today. Definitely not the processes we have today, which we can talk about a little bit too. I must have been looking to expand the team and I know we had a great connection. I just remember feeling really confident about that initial connection.

You shared a little bit about why you took the instructor role. Is there anything else you wanted to share about that? What was appealing about that role for you?

Paula Bell: It was something different. I had not really ever been an official instructor before. I was a mentor and I actually got out of mentoring because at the end of the day, what I found is I was mentoring a lot of people, but I was giving out a lot of resources, but not getting a lot back in. Let’s put it that way. I was trying to build my own business at the time, too. I wanted to expand my business, get more visibility speaking and things of that nature. I had to really prioritize where I wanted to focus. The instructor part was really appealing to me because it took me out of my comfort zone.

A lot of people see me speak and they’ll say, you’re confident, you’re engaging, but what people don’t know is I’m a nervous wreck before I hit the stage. A lot of that is because I used to stutter when I was younger, and so I had a fear of speaking. The instructor was another way for me to speak, but in a different way to where I’m teaching and I’m helping individuals understand concepts and to get things in their minds, change their mindset on certain things, help them increase their toolkit.

I thought it was very interesting, but I will tell you, I remember doing my first instructor hour. That was nerve wracking. Data modeling instructor hours were always the hardest ones. Every time I signed up for one of those, the amount of prep work that I would do, because you just don’t know what people are going to ask you. But I like that because it’s the unknown, that’s where the fear comes in. It was helping me get over that fear, but also giving back to a community.

It was appealing to me for a couple of reasons. Strengthening me as an individual. I was gaining new skills and then I was also able to give back to the BA community as well. I think that’s really what was the appealing part to it. And the Bridging the Gap company, I had respect for. If I was going to put my time and resources into something, I wanted to put it into a company that I respected. Though, I didn’t know everything you offered and everything you did, I knew enough to know that this would be a good place to put my energy. That’s how that started.

Laura Brandenburg: Sure.

Paula Bell: I’m  glad you remember the conversation, Laura. I do not remember everything you talked about, but you had a good feeling when you walked away. I love to hear that. I like to hear that people have good energy for me.

Laura Brandenburg: It felt like it was a good decision, for sure.

Paula Bell: What was it about when you walked away from that conversation that was like, “Yeah, she would be an ideal instructor for BPG?”

Laura Brandenburg: I wish I could tell you. That was such a long time ago. But I just remember like a strong gut feeling, you know, how sometimes you can remember how you felt, but you don’t actually remember what happened? That’s how I feel about that. But I will say, to that point, that feeling has continued to evolve and expand as we’ve expanded your role within the company. There’s always just been this gut feeling that Paula would be the great fit for this next thing that’s opening up.

I feel it’s often been your commitment and your dedication and the skills that you bring as well as just your motivation and compassion and passion for the role. There are a lot of factors to that. I’m sure that showed up in that initial conversation, but I can’t say I remember, specifically.

In the early days, for anyone listening, I made many of my instructor hires very much based on my gut. Some of them were amazing and some of them not so much. And now we have a very structured process that we know brings us in great instructors. If you’re watching this and be like, “How do I just get it?” We have an actual process now.

It’s very different. And it also, I think, really helps the instructor understand what’s expected. Because I know when you started, it was like, “Oh, just go ahead and review these workbooks and give them some feedback,” was pretty much the instruction. We’ve come a long, long way,  which is a great segue actually, I think, into the program manager role, because that was the next role that you stepped into.

You’d been an instructor for a couple of years and then I opened up this opportunity for a program manager because it was becoming a lot for me to manage the marketing and manage the entire Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program. As we had more instructors coming in, we were starting to see not total inconsistencies, but just people were doing things in different ways. There was not a lot of standardization and so that program kept demanding more from me from a delivery perspective, and I felt like I needed some help there. That’s my recollection of why I originally created that role. I remember sending you this email with like, “Here’s a new role I’m thinking about. I think you’d be great for it. What do you think?” And you were like, “Hmm, I need to think about this one.”

Paula Bell: You’re right. At the time you sent me that role, I was very heavily involved in expanding my own business as well. I think at that point in time, I had rebranded myself for a while to be a martial artist. There were things that I was going into and delving into and I was working a full-time job. I was like, oh, good grief. How am I going to handle all of this?

I was hesitant at first when I saw everything. I think, initially, I might even have passed or I worded it in such a way where it came off as I had said, no. And then you were like, “Well, let’s talk about this for a little bit. Let’s go through it and let’s talk about it and let’s see if there, because there were so many different things.” I think I had made a comment, “Are some of these items, something that others can do that’s not necessarily on me?” We went through it. And when we started to go through it and talk through the actual expectations in that role and we started to think about who else on the team could potentially do some of the items, it began to become more feasible for me to do.

Because what I didn’t want to do was take on a role and not give what was needed for that role and not be successful in that role with everything else I had going on, because I was still very focused on expanding my business because my goal was to leave corporate. I had that goal in my mind that I wanted to leave corporate America and I wanted to go into roles that more aligned with what I wanted to do with my life going forward.

I’m glad I did it. It wasn’t nowhere as much as I thought it was going to be. We came up with a really good process to get things done, and we started getting more consistency and standardization, like you said, and the instructors were all in. The instructors are phenomenal. The feedback from the instructors and the insights and the things that we should do to change was great.

We did our own business analysis on our own business analysis platform. We were doing BA work as well and it’s been great. At first, it was a little bit, again, challenging because I went into the role and now I’m going a little bit deeper into your business. Being an instructor is one thing. Okay. I have a workbook, I have guidelines, I have things that I need to look at. Okay. Now you want me to actually run the Blueprint delivery, the Blueprint program delivery. And I’m like, I don’t know. I’m not into the actual scheduling and all that.

I remember being on a call where creating a schedule would take us hours, and now we’ve got that thing down to such a well-oiled machine. I can knock out a schedule in 30 minutes to an hour and get the next schedule ready for the next session. It’s been the things that we’ve been able to do to elevate the company to the next level, to provide phenomenal and exceptional service. For the customers we serve, it has been great to watch and know that I was a part of that.

Groundbreaking has been kind of amazing too, because I don’t think I’ve sat down enough just to think about…we’ve done a lot. I’ve only been with the company for five to six years. It hasn’t been like I’ve been with you for 25 years. I’ve only been with you for five to six years and we transformed three times in that five to six years, and we continue to. It’s pretty amazing.

I was honored for you to think that I would be great for that next role, because I know when I started as an instructor, I was making some mistakes and things of that nature. But when you came to me with that, I mean, why did you feel that that was the next step for me, that I would be the next good fit? Because you had other instructors. Why did you feel that I would’ve been the next good fit for that role?

Laura Brandenburg: What stood out to me, specifically, for that was because we have, obviously, all of our instructors are great business analysts, otherwise, training other business analysts isn’t a great fit. I don’t remember exactly what you did, but it also just was apparent to me, you were also a great project manager. The program manager role, yes, there was like procedure development, but it was also very much a project management role. I feel like that has also carried you into the Director of Operations role. It’s also very much a project management role. I saw you as somebody who could wear both of those hats very well.

I don’t exactly remember what it was that you were doing at the time that showed that to me, but I know you do. You were doing event planning. There was a confidence I had in your project management abilities that, to me, made you stand out for that particular role.

And I would say in addition to that, I don’t know if I was aware of it at the time, consciously, but maybe unconsciously, your leadership and ability to manage others and build relationships with others and just the teamwork part of it, which has been essential as we’ve grown as well.

Paula Bell: That’s a hard thing. When you are working with your peers and then you actually ask all your questions to Paula. You don’t go to Laura or to the ops team. You go to Paula. I’ve had that happen in my career before and sometimes that’s hard when you’re like a peer and then now you’re the lead and just going into that.

What was really cool though, is all the instructors were all supportive about it, all behind it, loved it. And the ops team too. I didn’t have that feeling as if anybody felt slighted or anything like that. It was sort of a totally different shift where it was all about the support.

The same thing happened when I moved into the DOO role. The support was amazing on the team because, again, you just don’t know and everybody was just, “This will be amazing for you. This will be awesome for you to do.” It does, it feels good when that happens. I think that was probably, maybe, my biggest concern is how would the team take it as I’ve made these shifts. But we have such a great culture here that it’s not about competition or anything like that. It’s just doing what you love to do. And that’s amazing in itself. The environment’s amazing.

Laura Brandenburg: I do have a question for you that I would think other people thinking about this way of making a pivot might be wondering. I know you get this a lot. How do you do everything you do? How did you manage to work a full-time job, build your own business, and you were working in the program manager role. It was like five to 10 hours a week. I remember one of the things I felt really strongly about was we need to have meetings during the day. I’m not able to do evening meetings for this role. We still have instructor meetings sometimes in the evening, but our day to day interaction needed to be during daytime hours. I know that was not an easy thing to sign up for initially. How did you make all that work?

Paula Bell: I do get asked this question a lot. How on earth are you able to do all the things you do and you have to manage your kids? I have kids too, and a family too, have all that involved. Really and truly, you have to set boundaries, you have to prioritize. And I am run by my calendar. If it’s not on my calendar, it pretty much doesn’t exist. I literally put everything on my calendar. And when it comes to work, how it worked really well is because in my day job, I worked with so many different time zones. A lot of my meetings would happen mid-morning up into early afternoon and then I would be pretty much okay.

When it came to certain meetings, we had 1:1 or webinars that I needed to be on. I just needed to make sure those were on my calendar early enough. The thing that was good for me is I was in a position in my day job, high enough, where I could control my calendar, where I can say I have another meeting over the lunch hour or something like that.

And then there were sometimes I couldn’t. Because of where I was in the organization, I had to be on certain calls, especially if issues came up or something like that. It’s just having that flexibility. And then having a backup plan. Having people that can help you and support you if you can’t be there or being flexible.

You were really good on being flexible. We were able to rearrange things relatively easy. But for those things we couldn’t rearrange, like kickoff meetings, recap webinar, credibility boosters, I would put those on my calendar ahead of time. If somebody would schedule something over it, I just couldn’t make it because those meetings weren’t meetings that happened every single week. It happened once in a five month period. I didn’t feel as bad about that when I did that.

But I would have to tell people is you have to set boundaries. I have watched people say, “Well, I can’t tell them I can’t be on this meeting,” or, “I can’t do this.” And I’ll ask them. “Why?” And a lot of times it’s just fear. Because they feel that if they say they can’t do something, they’re going to get in trouble for it. But there were times, and I didn’t explain. I would just say I have another meeting; I have a conflict. I didn’t have to go into a ton of details. But it is a little bit different depending on what type of role you have. If you’re trying to do a day job and do a side hustle, depending on where you are in the organization, your options may be limited on how flexible you can be.

But I think because of where I stood in the organization, I had a little bit more flexibility on my calendar, even though to be quite honest, people still put stuff on the calendar, regardless of what you said, but I would send a delegate or have somebody else cover for me. But it is a lot of prioritization, setting boundaries, saying no. All of that.

You saw my journey of saying no, because I was very bad at saying no when I started with Bridging the Gap and now I don’t have a problem with it, going forward. You’ve seen my journey of the things that I’ve had to implement to be able to do the things that I want to do, even with my business and things, things of that nature.

It’s been, definitely set your boundaries and let them be. And prioritize your time. And as long as you’re delivering and you’re producing what you need to produce, a lot of managers are cool. As long as you get your job done, just get your job done. But if you’re not a good performer, that’s where you’re going to come into issues, because they’re going to say, well, if you can’t even do this, how are you doing this and that? So, that could be a problem.

Laura Brandenburg: I think that makes a lot of sense. There were times we had to adjust something which was fine. That was part, I think for me, one of the big shifts to the Director of Operations role, realizing I can ask Paula to meet anytime. Not anytime, because you still have other things going on, but there was definitely that constraint on my end knowing as a business, we have her five to 10 hours a week, so I can’t just on a whim say, “Paula, let’s have a meeting on Thursday,” and have it happen. We need to plan these in advance. There needs to be flexibility.

From a business owner perspective, I think it’s a great asset to have people who are doing side hustles. There’s some flexibility that’s required to make it work on your end, as well. It was important to me to be clear on what my boundaries were because I knew I didn’t want to be doing evening or weekend type work for the most part, but I could have some flexibility during the day. That’s where our medium was in terms of meeting each other’s boundaries.

Paula Bell: You’re right. You’re definitely right.

Laura Brandenburg: I feel like we should shift gears to the Director of Operations role. Was there anything you wanted to say about program manager?

Paula Bell: Oh, no. Let’s definitely go to the DOO role.

Laura Brandenburg: The exciting part.

Paula Bell: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: This has been, like, I feel that it was something that I had wanted in my business for at least a few years. And always just felt like the real grown up entrepreneurs had Director of Operations or Integrators or Chief of Staff, whatever they called them. It had been there in the back of my mind for a long time. And then, my recollection, I remember putting it on an org chart and being like, “It’s happening next year.” This was probably in 2021. And presenting it to our core team, “Just so you know, I think next year is going to be the year that I hire for it. If you’re interested, let me know.” And you were like, “Laura, I’m interested in that.” That’s my memory. Is that how you…?

Paula Bell: You’re right. You had it on an org chart and then I don’t know if I said it on that call or if I would’ve said it in our one to one, but I do remember saying, “I am interested in it, because this would be a great transition for me to get out of corporate.”

Now  let me be clear. You are still corporate. You’re corporate America. I just don’t put you in the same as I put other corporate America. The reason I say that is because the culture is very different here. What I was really trying to get away from was working in a culture where I just felt I couldn’t strive to my optimal, to what I know I could do, and I really wanted focus on my own business because I love what I do in my own business. And at some point, you have to break away in order to focus on that. And I felt when you had this, I was like, this actually could be a really good thing to do.

The reason I thought it was a good thing to do, there were a couple of reasons, some of it was selfish and then others was, you know. Selfishly, I did want to leave my day job. I did want to get out of that. It was time. It was time for me to leave. My kids were about to graduate from high school, and I’d always said when they graduated from high school, I wanted to shift into doing my own business.

What I thought was interesting about this role is the way, also, our companies kind of work together in a way. You do training. I don’t have to do BA training. I could send my clients who might be interested in that, go to BTG. It’s already created. I don’t need to do this. I don’t need to reinvent the wheel.

You don’t do the coaching aspect of it. That’s the part I love. I love the coaching aspect of getting to know people, interacting with them, helping them work on projects and stuff. I was like, this could be a great segue into me actually doing what I want to do; leaving corporate, but I’m still involved in a company that aligns with my values and the things that I like, and I can still help.

I have a loyalty to Bridging the Gap. It wasn’t like I could just leave Bridging the Gap that easy. I mean, you probably have to fire me. It’s not like I’m just going to come up one day and say, “Laura, I’m done. I just want to quit.” Right? No. I just don’t see that. You’re so supportive. The majority of the instructors…No, I probably can’t say the majority. A few of the instructors have their own businesses as well. And you’re always supportive of that. It’s never felt like a competition and it’s really rare to get in a culture like that where you can do your own thing and still work and it’s not feeling like we’re in competition with each other. We’re doing our thing.

It was exciting for me to have the opportunity, but you’re right. That’s how I saw it on the chart. I was like, “Really, she’s going to go full time?” “We’re going to a full time position. Hmm. This might work. Let’s talk about this a little bit.” And then to hear you say to me as you were thinking through it and whatnot, I think you were a little bit shocked that I was actually interested.

Because when I said it you were like, “You are, I think this would be the next perfect role for you.” And I was like, “Okay.” And then here goes the selfish part. I really didn’t have to interview for it. And that was great for me. I was burnt out on interviewing. I really didn’t have to interview for it because I was already a part of it. It just worked. It’s just that sort of next level promotion where I could do even more, understand the business even more.

We’re going to go into what scared us after the fact, but it has been challenging. There have been challenges as we’ve been doing this. I don’t think it was as smooth as me moving into the Program Manager position.

Laura Brandenburg: Right.

Paula Bell: This one has been a little bit more bumpy. We’re still good. It’s just been a little bit different.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, and it was. I felt like the Program Manager, from a business perspective, there was a safeness in having you work that five to 10 hours a week. It was a safe kind of level, or it was an incremental upgrade from a project perspective. Whereas bringing you on full-time, like you are my first full-time employee. You came in with a very fair, but also bigger salary than I’ve paid for anyone. Makes perfect sense. But also that was scary for me. It actually still feels a little scary for me. I’m sure you can hear the energy of it. Because I was like, what if I hire this person and then something happens and we can’t sustain the role? There are just all the what ifs came up for me, for sure. That was part of what scared me. It was that, but also I think my tendency to avoid conflict.

I knew that in a contractor, even though we have a great relationship, there’s just a difference that happens between a contractor role and a full-time employee where I knew I needed to express what I really wanted and be clear about what I really wanted or correct if something went off. I just needed to hold myself to being really proactive with that communication.

I would say one of the things I was scared of before was just not doing that and then feeling like I was burying resentments or things like that. That’s more of a tip for others. We’ve been real. I feel like we’ve had many conversations and we prioritized that before. You didn’t interview, but we had a two-hour conversation where we talked about what our motivations were, what we were scared about and what we were going to do to overcome it. We had these big, big conversations that I think set us up for success and continued to invest in those conversations on an ongoing basis because it doesn’t work any other way.

Paula Bell: A hundred percent agreeing. Some of those conversations are hard conversations too, because one of the things that I think scared me was, again, I was leaving this job that I’d been in for 15 and a half years. I’m making a massive career pivot. What I say by that is I’m going into a totally different role. Totally different industry, which is fine. I’d been working in it, but it was a risk because you just don’t know what you don’t know.

There’s a safety that you have working for a Fortune 500 company versus working for a smaller company where you’re the first full-time employee. There are financial considerations and all those sort of things that you have to take into consideration, and trade-offs and things that you have to think about.

But to me, what I’ve learned is there’s nothing better than having peace and really enjoying the environment you work in. It doesn’t make sense to work in an environment where you feel lousy all the time. You don’t like to get up and go to work because you’re just getting a paycheck. I’m so over that at this point. I want to work in an environment where I can thrive. This is a little bit different because for me, in my previous roles I have a certain function that I’ve been over and that’s it. I am over multiple things in this DOO role.

I remember telling you point blank, “Laura. I do not want to be over technology. I don’t want to deal with your technology. I don’t want to troubleshoot the technology. I don’t want to do technology.” It’s not that I’m scared of technology. It’s just that I know in my own business, I manage all of my tech. I know what that takes and what that is. I just didn’t think I had the bandwidth to do more of that.

Whereas I’m now looking at sales, I’m looking at projections, I’m looking at forecasting, I’m looking at strategic initiatives, I’m managing projects, I’m doing work, I’m writing standard operating procedures, I’m creating process models. I’m leading all the project calls; I’m leading all the ops teams calls. I’m leading the instructor meeting calls. It was all of this other stuff. And, granted, I have a learning curve because I don’t understand how everything is set up in Bridging the Gap and understanding what it takes to drive the Blueprint.

The launch was very eye-opening. What it takes to launch the Blueprint. All the different promotionals and things that you do. And even though I understand the concepts, because I do a lot of this in my own business, it’s not my business. I didn’t create it. And so I have this learning curve.

This is actually the thing that was really rough for me, especially the last couple of months, was I feel like I’ve gone into entry level mindset again, because I worked in a company where I knew the stakeholders. I knew the culture. I knew how to get the information I needed. I knew who to talk to. If I didn’t know the answer, I automatically knew who to go to. I knew where to look and that’s a little bit different with what I’m doing now for Director of Operations right.

Now, I’m like, “Okay, where do I find this information? Who do I reach out to?” I pretty much know who I reach out to, but it’s just finding the information and putting the stuff together and understanding that in addition, making sure I’m not dropping the ball on anything that needs to get done for the day.

It’s a lot of balancing. I do believe I’ve gotten better. I still think there’s work to be done, though, because I’m trying to, again, with the learning curve, I’m documenting a lot of things. That takes time. And then customer support, all that takes time. I’m trying not to be too hard on myself either or be too critical on myself because it’s only been since I started in, what, April. I’ve only been here for three, four months. It’s not like if I’ve been doing this for a while, but I try not to be too critical of myself, but it has definitely been just a different mind shift, a mental shift. Do I regret any of it? No. Are there times when I’ve been disappointed on how things went and what’s happened? Of course. That was even when I worked in my corporate job, of course.

I think for me, it hurts more when you’re in a culture that you really, really love and you have that loyalty and respect for someone and you feel like you’ve let them down because of something you’ve missed.

For me, when I worked in my corporate job, we were missing stuff all the time. That was just a part of the culture. It was just like, “We missed this one again. How are we going to fix?” We all jump on a call, but this one was a little bit different because we are pretty well-oiled machine and the things that I knew, I’m coming into something I don’t know that is typically a well-oiled machine, and we messed up me parts of it as we’re learning. That was the hard part, I think, for me to figure out. How could I stop that from happening? Well, I don’t know how I could have stopped that from happening because I’m juggling 15 other things. I don’t know how I could have made that any better.

Laura Brandenburg: I have the same questions around, I mean, I think on the learning curve part, I would say because we also had some other team transition. And so we lost that background knowledge. That, from a CEO perspective, required more from me than I was expecting, because in my mind it’s just clear. We’ve been talking about this for a while or it’s documented. And then I would feel that way. And then I would get in a meeting with you and other team members and it would be very apparent to me it wasn’t as clear as it felt in my head, and that we did need to talk through things.

It makes sense to me that things got…this doesn’t even feel quite like the right word. There were things or challenges that popped up and some of them just happened. And I think what really stood out to me, though, was how you led the team to figuring out how to problem solve and troubleshoot and kept to that positive culture in place. Because there was a few times when I had a little bit of like frustration too, and you were able to hold the energy of the positive culture, which is something I usually really pay attention to holding the energy for.

That was unexpected for me to be able to relax a little bit around always needing to hold that energy and to have somebody who can also hold that energy, or at this point, like, “Laura, I’ve got this, you just go do whatever you need to do to get yourself right. I’ll take care of this.”

I’m still learning how to shift out of feeling like I need to hold both, energetically, the company and all the things that need to get done, because my way of managing all the things that needed to get done was very different than yours. Yours is much more methodical and much more action based. That’s what’s going to help us grow going forward. Not me having it all in my head and thinking things through.

There’s a transition period as you go through that. And we’re in that right now, in the thick of it. And we’ve gone through a lot of it. I’m sure there’s still more to come. It’s exciting to me because I know what’s on the other side is worth it. We have built, already, a much stronger company because of it. And we’re continuing to get stronger because of it.

Paula Bell: 100% agree. It was a little bit, no matter what challenge we had, we definitely rose above it and we work well together. I think I can read you pretty well to where I know where your energy is at the time and I have to offset it. I think we offset each other good too. If I’m having a day or you’re having a day because of things that are going on, or for example, when I had COVID, it was sort of like, okay, everybody leave Paula alone because she can’t function, because she really can’t and we’re going to handle this until she comes back.

We do that for each other all the time. We give each other that sort of space to be able to have your moments where you’re not 100% at your optimal self because we’re human. I do think that’s great.

Because of culture, that’s what makes a difference. That’s one thing I think we should mention here too because I’ve talked about it quite a bit. Culture makes all the difference in the world. And the last two instructors we hired, one of the items that they both brought up consistently was they wanted to be a part of our culture.

What I would love to hear from you that might help other organizations or corporations is how on earth did you build this culture? It’s like the optimal culture you want to work in. And I’m not just saying this because I work for you. It really is. It’s like everybody respects each other. We know what the expectations are. We know what your vision is. We know what your values are. And we continue to review them every single month. We keep that front of mind. We know the type of environment you want to create. We want the interactions to be as positive energy as possible. Even with challenging situations and scenarios, we still try and keep it positive.

How did you build that? How did you create that culture? Because I think a lot of companies want to create it. And you have diversity on your team. Can I also throw that in there? You have diversity on your team. You have diversity from ethnicity, from gender, from age, from skill set, from industry. How did you build that?

Laura Brandenburg: I wish I could give you the 3-step or 10-step formula. I honestly asked myself this question because you’ve asked me this before and I’m like, I don’t know. I would say the value; you called out the values. I think that was a key piece, but we’ve really only got those written down like three years ago. I feel like those were a formalization and recognition of these are the values that have been in place in this company for a while. Now we can share them and talk about them.

If I had to identify something, I would say maybe it’s showing up with authenticity with people and not trying to be somebody I’m not and being really clear about what the business is for and why we’re doing what we’re doing. That’s always been really clear to me. The people that we’re serving, the mission that we have to help people really build a practical skill set. I feel like that and the transformations we see people go through really does gel the team, because they feel like they’re part of something that’s bigger.

You mentioned it right at the beginning, this is meaningful work. It was like an outcome. You were giving back. Yes, you’re profiting. Obviously, everybody on the team is getting paid for what they do. Hopefully it feels like that’s a fair compensation. But you’re also doing work that feels meaningful and has a positive outcome. That was important to me when I started the business is that I was doing work that mattered to me because I had left a corporate job where I felt like the work I did really didn’t have an outcome that I cared about.

You layer a toxic environment on top of that and it’s like, why am I spending all my time doing something I don’t enjoy for an outcome that doesn’t matter to me and being treated like crap. I knew I wanted the antithesis of that. I had no idea it would become what we have today, but it was like the impetus behind starting Bridging the Gap. It’s really been just one step at a time. How do I make this decision in a way that fulfills that vision?

I would say, I guess, that’s the other piece of it. It’s been very incremental. The vision has been there, the vision has expanded and it’s just been like, how do we deal with this challenge in front of us with the tools and the people we have and bring my best to it? Not like some grand scheme every single time.

There are places where we’ve made corrections in the culture. Like we’ve made corrections to certain team members and we’ve made corrections in how we hire instructors because we had some great fits and some not so great fits. Also, just being able to make those corrections when you see it’s not a good fit and to kind of see the truth of that. Those are some of the hardest decisions that I’ve had to make, to be honest. But often they are the most impactful as well.

I will say for you, Paula, you were a big part of that instructor hiring process, which to me, it does define a lot of our culture, like how we hire for instructors. I also think how we hire has helped create diversity because it creates a very level playing field. Everybody is assessed according to the same rubric using the same questions. It’s very standardized. There’s this level playing field that helps take unconscious bias out of the process so that the most qualified candidates end up getting hired.

That has, organically, led to a lot of diversity on the team. That’s my perception of how we’ve created diversity. It hasn’t been like a strategic thing. I feel like there’s probably desire there, but it hasn’t been like, “Oh, I need to hire this person to feel like we are representing. That’s not how people want to be treated anyway. I don’t think anybody wants to be the person who represents this specific thing on a company. You want to be hired because you’re qualified and that’s what that process does.

Paula Bell: Right. 100% agree. We have done a ton of work over the last few years on just how we make sure that everything we do is done with integrity and credibility. Even if people don’t necessarily understand it or agree, that’s okay, but I know I can go to bed or look at myself in a mirror knowing we’re doing our due diligence and we’ve done the right thing. We’re not for everybody, but for those that engage and participate it’s, it’s been a great community. And there’s been great work that’s been done.

Being in this role, if there are other business analysts out there, or even project managers, I mean, I’m a living witness right here on how you pivot. I’ve been in many different industries. I started my career as a software engineer back in the late nineties. And then I moved into, I was a help desk analyst. Then I was a business analyst when it wasn’t even known at that time. They called me an Integration Specialist and I formally got trained and was a business analyst.

I just moved into so many different industries and in so many different roles and it all started, I personally feel, I just had business analysis skill set in my DNA. It always came easy to me. It wasn’t really hard. When I did the formal training, I was like, “Oh, this is easy,” when I watch other people really struggle make an E R D or a use case diagram. Wire frames was really easy to me. It just made sense to me.

I’ve been able to take all of these skills and build my own company and it started out as event planning. That’s when the project management came in. I was able to do my own company and I rebranded myself multiple times to where I am today. And it’s all using the project management and business analysis skills that I’ve had with the technical skills as well. All of that’s been transferable, not knowing back then that I would be in a company, well, and CEO of my own company and DOO of another company in the business analysis space serving BAs, serving project managers and not knowing that at that time. It’s kind of funny how life does that.

You can do it. You don’t have to necessarily be in a BA role. You don’t have to stay in a BA role. You can serve business analysts in many different ways and you can use the skills in many different ways. And that’s what’s been great about this. I’ve been able, now it’s not like I, I don’t really do instructor hours. I do some webinars. I don’t do the teaching webinar. I’m not doing the teaching anymore. I’m not reviewing workbooks unless the second level review. That’s what the team’s doing. I’m more now I’m strategic. To me, it’s more like the strategic leadership sort of role, which is fun that I get to do, some days, not so much, but most days it is right.

There are some days it’s a little bit challenging than others, but it’s still the goal and the culture is what is what keeps me going. If I mess up, I would rather mess up in this company than mess up somewhere else, because I feel like it’s more of a grace that you get a little bit, unless you keep doing the same thing over and over again, but it’s more that grace.

And even when we have those days that have been challenging, we’re human. We have our emotions; we have those things. We’re always able to come back. We bounce back relatively quick. We’ll bounce back either in a couple of hours or by the next day, it just depends on when the scenario happens, but we bounce back pretty quick and then we get back on. What do we need to do to make sure this doesn’t happen in the future? It’s just the way we work really well together.

What’s also amazing is how we are both pretty savvy at, even if we’re having those scenarios, we’ve got to do a webinar, we can get on that webinar. We’ll be just as happy and positive as all get out, though we just had a challenging scenario that hit, but nobody will ever see it because we’re just on there and we’re back. We bring that.

Laura Brandenburg: The show must go on.

Paula Bell: Exactly. It must go on. And, again, to your point, if either one of us are at a point where we need that break, we both know that and we can give that. If you’re not up to it, I’ll be like, you go do what you need to do. I’ve got this. I’ll take care of it. And we just keep it moving and give each other that space that’s needed. It’s been great. The first four months have been great. There were a couple of days, again, we had some challenges and stuff like that, but we worked through them. That’s it.

Laura Brandenburg: Tell me about the best part, because we’ve talked kind of about the challenging and the scary, I feel like. Not that we’ve dwelled on the negative, but what’s the best part of having made this move?

Paula Bell: Let’s do talk about that. One of the best is the flexibility, the time flexibility. Let me tell you, when I worked in my day job, I was on meetings all the time. I mean, it was like. I swear, we had meetings just to figure out when the next meeting was going to be. It was just constant meetings to where I didn’t feel like I was able to be productive.

What I love is how we have it structured. We don’t have meetings on Monday mornings and we very rarely have a meeting on a Friday at all. I feel like I have some days that are just work days and then we are very intentional on the type of meetings that we have and how many.

If we institute another meeting, is there another meeting we can get rid of because now that’s being captured in this meeting that we’re implementing? The flexibility of time in my calendar has been great where I don’t feel like if I have a doctor’s appointment, it’s the end of the world. I have to rush through my doctor’s appointment because I have to be on this call because if Paula is not on this call, we can’t have the call. I don’t feel that sort of pressure. The flexibility of time and of the culture has been  freeing. I don’t feel as stressed and as tense.

I get up, come into my office, I do my work. After I exercise or eat breakfast or what have you, or eat breakfast while I’m doing my work, but I just get it and I get it and I do my thing. I have control of my schedule and how I can work.

And then the ability to just take time, myself. Again, we got done with the launch and it was really interesting when you said to me last Friday. Well, you know, Paula, you know, we’ve been working really hard the last couple of weeks. If you want to head out early, because I had Monday off, on Friday do that. I’m not used to that. I’m not used to having that. I was like, “Really I can leave early?” That’s a thing? I can do that and not be bothered and not feel bad about it and not feel guilty about it?” And it was great because I checked out at 1:00 and nobody sent me anything, because I was checking. Nobody sent me anything until I came back in the office on Tuesday, and it was pretty cool to be able to just take that time and do that.

Just, again, the culture, the time, flexibility, the ability you allow me to do my own thing. You do not micromanage me. You’re not looking. “Okay. Is Paula online? What is Paula doing today?” and whatnot. Are there things that you’re looking at to make sure that we don’t miss? Yes, but I think that’s normal because you’re trying to make sure that these things that we may not know that have been checked in the past, they’re getting checked.

To me, that makes sense. I don’t look at that as micromanagement. I’m just looking at that as transition items. But you don’t really do that. You always ask me if I, this is nothing I’m not used to either, you always say, “Are you available for this meeting at such and such time?” Usually people just put the meeting on my calendar, don’t ask me anything and that’s it. But you actually ask, “Can you do this meeting?” And I’m like, “Well, Laura, if you require me to be on the meeting, just tell me I need to be on the meeting.” But that’s not how you roll because you don’t know what else I have on my calendar. You don’t know if I’m doing a quarterly connect with an instructor. You don’t know if I’m having a meeting with another ops team member. You don’t know. The simple fact that you ask me is kind of cool.

How we do meetings is really cool too. I don’t have that stress of I have to give up something to be able to do everything. That’s been me of the exciting things. I don’t have the stress that I had. I do have some stress. You naturally have stress as you do work, but I just don’t have the amount of stress I used to have. And I feel like I’m more productive where I can create things.

I know Monday morning and Fridays; I can at least have those days to create. And my Tuesday, Wednesdays and Thursdays sometimes are busy, but I still have days to be productive and I like that, and I hope that doesn’t ever change. I kind of like that flow.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, that’s awesome. It’s so gratifying to hear that.

Also, as a business owner to have been in a position to create a position for somebody else to have that is pretty awesome.

I will say that’s one of the things I like the most about as we’ve grown with Bridging the Gap, both for this opportunity, but also instructors, just being able to see people get excited about the work and create these opportunities that didn’t exist before, because our business is supporting that. That has been really exciting to me.

One of the things I’m most excited about with having you in the DOO role, it’s so funny that you mentioned, there was a shift when like, oh, I can actually, if I need to talk to Paula tomorrow, most likely we’re going to be able to talk tomorrow. Where before that whole needing to plan ahead or only feeling like I could use so much of your time because you had, obviously, other commitment. But I knew, I just had that sense of your form of energy in our company was going to make such a big difference and it has.

Just seeing the level of documentation and standardization and the resources that are coming out of that, it feels, for the first time, like everything that’s flowing through my head and out that we’re talking about, things are getting created from that. It’s not just that work is getting done, but like also it’s getting put in place in a way that other people could do it if they needed to. It’s being improved along the way. And it’s been really cool to see that unfold as well. And I know we’re just getting started because, obviously, there has been a learning curve.

When you think about what’s going to be possible six, 12 months from now when the learning curve is in the past, then we’re creating new things. I think our synergy’s really going to enable a lot of exciting things as we go forward.

Paula Bell: I agree. It’s interesting as well, because I manage quite a few different projects and one of the things that I love that we do too, is I’m like, okay, Laura,  we have all this going on. Let’s think about prioritizing again because I want to make sure I’m not dropping the ball on anything. It’s just being able to have those conversations and reevaluating and reprioritizing and the ability to do it quite quickly and, and whatnot. And to have a team, a tech team, a marketing team, that’s just really big on delivering the value that we want to bring to the customers we serve. It’s just amazing to watch.

And, again, no matter what, it’s just a great team to work with, because everybody’s just so motivated and positive and optimistic and just really passionate about the work that we do in the company. And that’s just awesome. It’s awesome to see.

If there’s one thing that I don’t ever want to change, I don’t ever want that culture to change because the culture is what’s going to drive the right people in and we just want to make sure that we continue to keep that culture going, because there’s something about the culture, because everybody mentions it. That’s the reason why they want to come to BTG, because of the culture. It feels like a family and we are a family. A true family. We’re not just saying we’re family. We truly are family. I mean, we truly look out for each other and we want to make sure everybody’s okay.

Laura Brandenburg: All right. Well, I feel like we have probably talked way longer than we were expecting to in this interview. Do you have any last words that you want to share before we close things out?

Paula Bell: I can’t think of anything outside of, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for giving me a position in life where I actually enjoy working all day now. It doesn’t feel like I’m actually working though, because I enjoy what I’m doing.

Even when I’m done with Bridging the Gap and I move into my own company, the same energy is still there because I love what I do. It’s not like, oh, I’m finally doing what I love in my company. Thank you for creating that opportunity and having the faith that I was the right person and the right fit for that even though I did question it a couple of times the last couple of weeks, but we pulled through it and everything’s good. I do want to just say, thanks. Thank you for that. I appreciate that.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, thank you for stepping in and I feel like your decision to say yes to that Program Manager role, which I remember that moment, that got us to where we are today. That really allowed our relationship to grow and expand. I know that that was a big thing to step into, and I just appreciate you stepping in every step of the way.

If there’s another business owner out there, I think, maybe the takeaway is get really clear on what you want in the role and why it’s important to you and always the building of those relationships, because you just never know who on your team is going to be the next person that can be elevated.

Paula Bell: Agreed.

Laura Brandenburg: All right. Well, thank you so much for listening. I hope that you found this valuable. If you have questions about it, feel free to leave a comment below wherever you’re watching this or reading this. We’d love to hear from you.

Paula Bell: Exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: All right. Thanks everyone. Thank you, Paula.

Paula Bell: Bye everyone. Bye Laura.

>>How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes.

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

What we love about Michelle’s story is how she was already a business analyst, but knew The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program would provide her with the skills she needed to solidify her skillset and gain the confidence she needed. 

In this interview, you’ll discover: 

• Why Michelle chose The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program over other training options. 
• The specific skills and lessons that Michelle learned through the program that gave her confidence in her senior role. 
• The templates and tools Michelle uses in her job to provide structure and clarity for the leadership team. 

Beverly Sudbury: Good day. I’m Beverly Sudbury, an instructor with Bridging The Gap. And today I am very happy to be here with Michelle Bosomworth, from Southwestern Ontario, who is currently working as a senior business process analyst in the cybersecurity industry.

Today Michelle is going to share with us her journey and show how her participation in the Business Analysis Blueprint Program contributed to her success. 

Hello, Michelle. Welcome.  

Michelle Bosomworth: Hi Beverly. Thank you. 

Beverly Sudbury: Hi. Thank you so much for being here to share your story. I really appreciate it.  

Michelle Bosomworth: Yes, I’m happy to. Thank you.  

Beverly Sudbury: Thank you. So shall we get started?  

Michelle Bosomworth: Sure. Let’s go.  

Beverly Sudbury: Okay. Can you take us back to late 2020, early 2021 just before you joined the Bridging The Gap program for the certification? Where were you in your career at that time and what were you looking to achieve? 

Michelle Bosomworth: Sure. A couple years ago, well, actually five or six years ago, I started as a business process analyst. It was a mid-career change for me. Previously, I had studied journalism and I had been working as a copywriter and a technical editor for some software and non-profits and working on a lot of process documentation in my role on those teams. 

I had this opportunity. There was a reorg in my team at my job at the time where I had this opportunity to work on some strategic and process-related initiatives coming up. A year or two ago, that’s where I was. I was working on some process initiatives, mostly related to our technical documentation process and the tools that we use with the vendor. 

Also, I had the opportunity to build from scratch a new translation process working with our vendor and our internal teams on how to translate our software UI strings and our technical documentation. That was an interesting project because I was able to look at all of the different facets – the stakeholders, the processes, the tools, and also the money. The end result there was over a few years, we were able to realize some hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings just by streamlining this process.  

Going back to 2020, that’s kind of where I was. I had been working on these initiatives for a couple of years. I was hoping to move into a more senior role and work on some more strategic initiatives. I was very happy to have the opportunity to be promoted to a senior role, about this time a year ago, actually, just before the Blueprint started.

What I was looking for with the blueprint program was to sharpen some skills that I already had, but mostly learn some new ones and get some tips and tricks. And also some of the modules were related to some areas that I hadn’t really gone deep into. So, I wanted to learn more about those and grow in that area.  

The key thing that I liked about the Blueprint, because I had attended many of the information sessions in the past was the targeting of people in that career transition and how to grow their capacity as a business analyst. 

That was really exciting to me and the idea of getting a business analyst certification at the end of it and going through all of that hard project work at the end was very enticing to me. I’m really happy to have attained that certification.  

Beverly Sudbury: Sounds like quite a journey you had even before you began with us. It sounds like you did achieve a lot which really is very beneficial, I’m sure to how that helped you through the modules in the program. 

Michelle Bosomworth: Sure. Yeah. The first module with business process analysis, that was sort of my bread and butter because that’s the one I had the most workplace experience in up to that point in time. But then as they progressed, I was really happy to dive deeper and deeper into the different levels of data with the other modules and grow my experience there.

The key thing is although I work within the engineering and QA department at my company in my role, I’m not a very super technical person. I am coming more from the communications and the business side of things, the strategy and the focus on customer experience and user satisfaction. What I really liked about as the modules progressed, my ability to learn more and more about how to better understand and talk to the technical side of the business. 

Being situated there in the middle as a business analyst, the certification program provided a lot of value and insights for me there.  

Beverly Sudbury: Yes. And I know one of the things, because I was very fortunate to be able to talk with you during the program and work with you. One of the things you quite often mentioned was you were gaining confidence and you were excited about how you could implement these new skills. 

Michelle Bosomworth: Yes.  

Beverly Sudbury: What was the biggest thing that helped you gain that confidence within the course?  

Michelle Bosomworth: The confidence, the workbooks, they really take you to deep levels of a project and planning and thinking about it. So the more that I focused on the questions and the tasks and being really thorough in my answers, and I was working on a project that I’m trying to bring to life right now with my workbooks, that really…the more you work on those skills through that thinking process, I think the confidence just comes naturally because you are more immersed in the content and you’re getting feedback.

Listening to my peers in the program in the instructor hours or in the online lessons, the workshops, that was super valuable to me, too, because I could learn from other people and I could also see where people are experiencing similar challenges to what I was facing at the time. Just knowing that I wasn’t alone and that I was part of a community in this program and the feedback, especially, your feedback in the program was very thorough and very helpful because it really provided some thought-provoking questions that I had to really think, okay, I have to be more specific here. I need to be more clear here to communicate what I needed to communicate to the intended audience of that task. I think over time, the confidence grew. 

Beverly Sudbury: And that’s a good thing to hear, and I’m glad to hear that you’ve mentioned the thinking because business analysis is a very big thinking job and a job that we really need to analyze, for lack of a better word, what we’re trying to achieve. And it sounds like you were able to utilize a lot of the resources that were available from the Blueprint to help you with that. It sounds like you really were invested in this particular program. I appreciate that feedback because that’s really great to hear.  

Michelle Bosomworth: Yes. I love to learn and the modules were really clear and easy to follow. And the transcripts, you could go back and highlight the things you needed to make sure you were going to focus on when completing the workbook. The resources, the templates, many of them I’m using in my project work today. And I expect to pull them out of my toolbox on future projects when they fit the bill.  

The thinking piece, it really, having a live project that I was working on really enhanced that, too, for me, because I was able to really think about the situation that I was trying. It’s like a puzzle. What are these pieces I’m trying to put together? How can that puzzle, when it is put together, provide a really clear picture for the audience and the stakeholders that I’m trying to address in my work? That, I found a lot of value in. 

Beverly Sudbury: Very good. It sounds like you’ve got a little toolbox prepared for your future projects, which is a fantastic tool to have.  

Michelle Bosomworth: Yeah. I love to draw out those templates and the things that we learned in the last module, the master class, that really brought everything together because so much of the other modules was around the data and very specific tasks. This one was end to end process and focused, too, a lot on the business analysts role in that whole process and how they can prepare and pull off a successful project. I really appreciated having that template of a process to follow, as well, in my work.  

Beverly Sudbury: Very good. You’ve completed and you’ve received your ACBA certification, which is fantastic. Congratulations again. 

Michelle Bosomworth: Thank you. 

Beverly Sudbury: It sounds like you’re utilizing the teachings and the skills from the course. How is that benefiting your career now and your job now?  

Michelle Bosomworth: Sure. My peers and my manager are aware that I was participating in the program. They were very helpful in contributing at the points along the way in the process. How that’s benefiting me now is I have good communication with my stakeholders. I think it helps to elevate us respect, mutual respect for the roles that we play.  

I also feel, back to the confidence factor, I’m able to bring a lot more to the table, maybe, that I’m aware of that I’m doing that as opposed to before, serving up good strategic options, delivering solutions. I feel like confidence is a key piece of it, but I also now have a better clear vision of what I’m delivering with each project.  

I think I get good feedback from my peers and I feel like the way some of the templates and tools, the lessons talk about with agenda setting and hosting meetings, so stakeholder interactions and how to provide value. That also, ultimately, helps enhance those relationships as well.  

A lot of it is about communicating whether it’s on the page or in person. And I think that I was able to enhance a lot of the skills that I already had and learn a few tips and tricks and new ones during the program that I’m able to continue growing with, as we move along. Yeah.  

Beverly Sudbury: Good. It sounds from what you said, you said your coworkers are noticing your improvements as well. I imagine that they are congratulating you. You said you were getting feedback. Are you getting that congratulatory type of feedback saying you’ve improved greatly? 

Michelle Bosomworth: Yeah. In some meetings you might get called out to say, “Thank you for this job well done,” or, performance review time comes along and it’s great to see some of the feedback you get in a performance evaluation from your manager and peer feedback that may be communicated to you through that process. 

My teammates will come to me for help with certain question now. I’m starting to work with some different teams related to the beta program. That is my primary project right now. So I’m working with some new stakeholders, but I feel like I may also have just sort of their trust from the get-go, because I have a track record of success till now. The proof is in the pudding as they say. Right.  

Beverly Sudbury: It sounds like you’re doing very well, and it sounds like a lot of the skills and a lot of the items you’ve learned have really helped you with your success. So congratulations on that, Michelle. That’s fantastic. 

Michelle Bosomworth: Yeah. Thank you. I sort of landed into business analysis six or seven years ago, just sort of by the organizational change and this role being available. But I really feel like I’ve landed into a spot that I can really grow and thrive in. I really love it so much. I’m excited about expanding and growing and working on more and bigger projects because it is really an exciting area to be in. 

Beverly Sudbury: Very good. We’ve touched a lot on how the business analysis program has actually helped you and how it’s actually benefited your career. If you hadn’t taken the program, where do you think you’d be right now?  

Michelle Bosomworth: Well, I think I would be doing a lot of self-discovery, watching YouTube videos and looking up resources online. I wouldn’t say floundering a bit, but do you know what I mean? You just sort of kind of case by case reacting day-to-day to what you’re doing and trying to do the best you can. I feel now like I have a bit of a more solid roadmap and I have some tried and true tools and methods and templates that I can use to pull off something successful rather than maybe trial and error. 

I have taken other business analyst training courses and watched webinars and YouTube videos along the way, just out of interest and to enhance my skills in some areas. But I feel like this really was a beginning to end, such a valuable experience to go through and to solidify my confidence and my skills, especially in some areas that opened my eyes. 

I didn’t even realize, for example, how beneficial something like the use cases in wire frames or the data modeling could impact sort of a business side project that I’m working on. I’ve been able to integrate some of those elements into the work that I’m doing because I went through and experienced those modules through the program. 

Beverly Sudbury: Great. It sounds like without that hands-on experience of actually doing the modules and doing the workbooks and doing the actual work that was requested. It sounds like it was a lot more beneficial than going and doing it another theory based type of lesson plan.  

Michelle Bosomworth: Yeah. The thing that attracted me to this certification is the hands-on element to it. I am still looking to obtain my professional certification with those more theory based programs. But this one, in terms of hands-on, it was a good exercise and convincing proof to myself, too, that I can get right in the dirt there and go through this process and be successful. That, I think, the hands-on aspect is a really nice element to an experience to have. 

Beverly Sudbury: Sounds fantastic. Now, you’ve gone through the course. You’ve been very successful and you’re seeing great results in your career now, which is all fantastic. What type of advice would you give to someone who is maybe starting out in their career or like you, was transitioning from maybe a mid-level career or start out of a BA career into a more senior role? 

Michelle Bosomworth: I guess I would say have fun with it. Be confident in yourself. Explore it. Even if you just have a little tiny bit of confidence, let that confidence grow. Give yourself the opportunity to explore. If this is a profession or job role that you’re interested in, then explore it. Because business analysis isn’t really just only a title, right?

People in multiple different careers perform aspects of business analysis, and it can really, really enhance your contributions to any type of project. I would just say have confidence and have fun with it and explore it because I’m really happy that I did. I just find the value really tremendous.  

Beverly Sudbury: Fantastic. Thank you, Michelle.  

Michelle Bosomworth: Thanks.  

Beverly Sudbury: I do appreciate your time here today. It was really fantastic hearing about your story and how much you enjoyed going through the Blueprint program and how much you enjoyed learning the new to you materials. Fantastic. Is there anything else you would like to leave us with for some final words?  

Michelle Bosomworth: Just that I can’t emphasize enough how much I appreciated the learning experience with both the instructors and my peers in the program and the lessons. They’re really valuable lessons that I can go back to when I need them. I’m really happy. I’m really proud to have attained the ACBA certification. Yeah. Thank you.  

Beverly Sudbury: Thank you so much, Michelle. And thank you, again, for your time today. It was really an honor to speak to you and hear about your journey throughout your career. I do really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. 

Michelle Bosomworth: Thanks, Beverly. It’s been lovely talking to you too. Thank you. 

Beverly Sudbury: Thank you so much.  

>>How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes.

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

What we love about Wendell’s story is that, similar to many course students, he wasn’t aware that he was already performing business analysis work in his work as a project manager. Through the help of a recruiter friend, he joined the program to showcase his value to his superiors.  

In this interview, you’ll discover: 

• Wendell’s journey of becoming a business analyst 
• How Wendell uses the skills, knowledge, and templates from the program practically in his career 
• The confidence Wendell has gained knowing he has the skill set and templates to serve the stakeholders and directors well 

Andrea Wilson: Welcome. I am Andrea Wilson with Bridging the Gap. I am here today with Wendell White, who was a participant in our 2021 Blueprint program. Hello Wendell.

Wendell White: Hi  Andrea. How are you?

Andrea Wilson: I am doing well. How are you today?

Wendell White: I’m awesome. Thank you.

Andrea Wilson: Fantastic. Very glad to have you. We’re here to kind of talk about where you’ve been, where you’re going, what’s changed for you. So I’d like to start out kind of talking about your career. Will you tell me a little bit about you and your career?

Wendell White: I will. Primarily I’ve been, for the past 20 or so years, and I’d say off and on a project manager. I started off like most, coming out of the college, just in the business world, working in technology, and I had a knack for computers and computer science in which I majored in while in college. I never knew it was something that I had a passion for or a skill until some others told me.

And for me, it was all about getting certifications and computers when it came to Microsoft certification and so forth. I would learn how to use a number of tools that I realized I was helping businesses manage projects. So I deemed myself early on as a project manager, really not knowing what managing a project was all about. But as I kept doing it, I went on and sought, further, more formal education in terms of managing projects. I’d like to say, in some cases, I felt rather good at it, rather accomplished at it, at least many of the people that I reported to said I did a good job, whether it be in their operations department or different various departments, but I’ve always had different titles.

So, as I looked at growing my career and furthering my career, and I’ve always been a believer in education. In most cases, I always look for the company to put together an educational track for me. However, when it came to the world of analyzing business or business analysts, I really didn’t know much about it. However, I thought I knew more than I really knew. It took a colleague of mine, someone I went to college with, to let me know she knew that I had been a project manager for a number of years, and she said one day, “Have you ever thought about being a business analyst?” And my response was, “I’d never be a business analyst.”

I worked with them all the time because as was a project manager, I would work with them, but I realized in the projects that I was managing, there were two things that I didn’t capture very well in my own personal career. One, I manage every project in a traditional manner. And I never knew what was coming when agile projects came into play and there were more changes than I was comfortable with. It was a business analyst that I didn’t realize her title at the time, but she was the business analyst that I was assigned to work with. And as she was putting together functional requirements documents, she put a 70-page functionals document in place. And I think she did it in a, maybe about 14 days, which it would have taken me by myself, maybe six to eight months to do. And I had no idea how she got accomplished that.

So after realizing what she had done, and this was years ago, I kept the requirements documentation because it was so well put together. I just could not figure out how she put it together and the way that she put it together. And it made me look at my requirements gathering process that typically I would do myself. And again, I thought that was a little bit more accomplished than I really was in pulling requirements. And I’ve looked at some of my documents and projects that I had in the past and I realized I could have done things a lot better. And even though most of the projects that I completed, they were typically under budget and within the guidelines.

However, I just realized they could have been better. So rather than me looking for a company organization to improve that, I just took what my friend was sharing with me in terms of to look at the business analyst route to see what really that was all about. That led me to wanting to get certified in analyzing business, because I’ve said, okay, well, I’ll get certified. As I was going down the path of getting certified, the same person that said, “Hey, look at it.” She said, “Hey, look at this company here.” And it was Laura Brandenburg’s Bridging the Gap program that she sent me over an email and I was amazed because I said, well, here’s a program that rather than me studying for, I say the initials, which is great. Here was a program that was in place that would actually give me hands-on learning and business analyst training.

And at the time, and which I’m currently today, a project manager, I was hired as a project manager. I was hired for a new project. And the first thing that I realized on the project was right around the time I was looking at the Bridging the Gap program, the first thing that I noticed was I’d asked the manager I was to report to what projects will we be working on? And the first thing he says, “Well, we don’t have any projects.” So I was left at a loss because I knew they had hired and I was sent over as a project manager, but they didn’t have any projects. So we had conversation. I explained that and I realized maybe two weeks into it that they needed a business analyst and the company had business analysts, but they had spent their budget on a project manager that, yes, I’m a competent project manager managing, but they didn’t have projects, necessarily, to manage.

So I took it upon myself to tell the company that since you don’t have any projects, I’ll work with the business analyst. And again, since they didn’t have one assigned, I took on the role of learning how to be a business analyst. And again, learning about the Bridging the Gap program, for me, it was timely because as I was receiving information from Bridging the Gap, it was giving me sort of the structure and understanding and the deliverables the company wanted and many of the things that I was learning and doing in class with Bridging the Gap, I would take those assignments and got to customize them to my job and what I was doing with the company that I was contracted to work with.

And it worked out really well outside of the fact that many of the things that I was learning in the Bridging the Gap class, the company, they loved it, but they weren’t at a pace to keep up with the pace of the class.

Andrea Wilson: Interesting.

Wendell White: That kept it going. And again, many of the processes that I learned with the Bridging the Gap program I’m implementing to this day. The documents that I put in our corporate Wiki site and in different pages, senior level representatives of company, they’re noticing that Wendell, myself, had done this months ago when I was in the class and I would actually put it in the Wiki in terms of here’s a pathway, let’s follow this pathway. So we’re kind of catching up now.

I’ve practiced many of the things with the Bridging the Gap program that I learned to kind of get me to where I am today. And that is, again, as a project manager, which I love being a project manager. I’ve opened my eyes and my career, and I look at more opportunities and I feel more accomplished that pursuing those opportunities that now look for business analysts to perform at a certain level of function. So I look to kind of bring my business analyst skills up along with my project management skills in these agile environments that I continue to find myself in.

Andrea Wilson: Sweet. That sounds like quite the journey there. So you started out as a project manager and you were doing some project management and you had this other person that had some BA skills and kind of opened your eyes to what it could be. And maybe a little hungry for more is what it sounds like.

Wendell White: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And the person that did the documentation of the functional requirements documentation, again, from 10 years ago she, too, was a project manager. However, she was trained and certified as a business analyst that I found out and we keep in contact. But that’s different from the person that introduced me to the Bridging the Gap program.

Andrea Wilson: All right. So tell me a little bit more about how you got introduced to Bridging the Gap, and what led you to pursue the ACBA business analyst certification?

Wendell White: The program was introduced by a friend in an email that had knew, for the longest, I had been a project manager. However, in me pursuing managing projects, I would say I got a little bored. And not only did I get a little bored in pursuing projects, I think projects were not… more of the projects that I found myself on, there was something wrong with project management world, and I just kind of wanted to take a hiatus from it. And it was during that time that COVID had come about and a lot of the companies and corporations were shutting down their offices and so many meetings are going on.

So, while I wasn’t necessarily pursuing any more tasks or jobs or contracts in terms of managing projects, she had sent me over an email, and I’m not exactly sure. I believe she was in the process of learning to become a business analyst, but she had somehow come across the Bridging the Gap program. I don’t know how she came across it in her world and what she does. She works from home and works as a recruiter. I didn’t know how, but she had sent me that information.

A matter of fact, I just thought. She was helping me as a recruiter find job opportunities that was outside of being a project manager. And I remember telling her that I wasn’t a business analyst. However, she kept sharing with me how there are so many opportunities out there that as she would say, they were requiring field’s that she knew I had. So, I kept reminding her because she had my resume and my curriculum vitae, that I’m a project manager, but she kept insisting that, “No, you do business analyst work,” and she’s looking at it on my resume.

So I said, “Okay, well send it over,” because I really didn’t feel that I was a business analyst. So when she sent me over the information for Bridging the Gap, I listened to, it was an introductory, maybe like a precursor class to Bridging the Gap, but it wasn’t the program. But for me, because if I want to learn something, when it made sense to not go directly for  certification, because certification would give me a certification. You take a test. And I know it’s a very difficult test. I believe I had a conversation with someone from Bridging the Gap. I don’t remember her name, out of Iowa, about my path. And it was a conversation with her that she said you know, yes, you can take a certification and get the letters.

Yeah, of course, if you passed it’s a difficult exam. She said you may want to take a look at this course. And in taking a look at the course, it was at the beginning of the year. Now I believe it was at the end of the year because I said, well, if I’m going to take a course, I wanted to make sure I had a way to pay for the course in terms of if it’s going to enhance my business. So, I just took account and followed Laura’s process of just getting a precursory look at the, Bridging the Gap program and then have a conversation with one of the Bridging the Gap employees just about what it is when the wants.

And it was a combination of that. And for me, because it wasn’t so much of me getting the letters. I truly wanted to learn how business analyst went about going into a business, going into a company and systematically, with a process in mind, that you can follow. I’m a process person. I said what better way, particularly when it was hands-on. And I knew if it’s, hands-on it’s a matter of me putting in the effort to show up for class, take the assignments, complete the assignments, but also at the same time complete your job.

Because again, I was hired as a project manager and I just think it was a bit of luck that I found the program and completed the program, stuck with the program and got frustrated with the program because it was a lot of work, but thoroughly enjoyed the learning that it took me through.

Andrea Wilson: There is a lot to the program. You mentioned kind of having that need for the formal education as you moved yourself along your career and wanting to know what, you know, and have something that says that, you know, what you know. And the program is built that way. Right? So there is a lot of work. It does produce some really good fruit, right?

So I hear confidence that it sounds like in the beginning, maybe we’re a little shaky about, maybe your friend pointed out to you that, hey, you’ve got some BA skills here and you said, “Oh, I’m a PM,” and you’ve worked along and you’ve worked along and you started the program and you realize, hey, maybe some of these are transferable skills. What are some of the things that you saw that maybe your friend was saying, and that, perhaps, you’d already had some experience with that once you got into the program, you thought, okay, this makes sense? Now that we have some framework to work in, what are some of the transferable skills that you came across?

Wendell White: What immediately comes to mind is because I’ve gotten into a habit of managing projects, you go into an organization and, again, with the company that I’m kind of attracted with, it’s a fortune 500 company rather than a large company. You need a certain level. I knew I had the confidence when it came to managing projects, but I really was sort of thrown off guard when the director said there are no projects and I knew there were projects.

So for me, I always knew for any company I’ve ever worked with, any project, I hit it hard first. And there was a portion in the Bridging the Gap program that kind of admonished against, hey, you guys, you want to jump in fast. I never thought it was important, and this is funny because it crinkly is important. I’d never thought it was important to sort of hone in on the, as is current state. I knew it’s kind of tell me what direction you want to go, where you want to be and work towards that. And I remember the first day of a project early in my career, and I kept this as a habit, was I hit the ground running and I always want to jump out the door and identify the stakeholders as we’re in the process of putting together a charter document.

That’s the first thing you do when initiating it. And one of the young ladies that I was working with, this was years ago, she had a question in terms of why I was going to meet these people to put together a stakeholder management plan or just to gather stakeholders. And I thought it was natural, but it was the Bridging the Gap program that made me realize, Wendell, the only reason you’re kind of identifying these stakeholders is because of these things called requirements, which I know what a requirement is, I know how important it is. I just didn’t know how to systematically get there.

And the young lady that refused to go from department to department, I could not convince her and explained to her, then, what I was doing. And it was the Bridging the Gap program that at least put in front of me, well, this is what you’re doing, and that is when you are putting together a charter document and putting together and listing out those stakeholders, you’re pulling together the information.

It’s going to come into the requirements and the objectives that the company and overall is going toward, while at the same time, you’re documenting where they are today and sort of keeping them along throughout the path from initiating to planning, to executing and ultimately closing either a phase or a project. So those were the transferable skills in terms of, I knew sort of, I kind of had an understanding of what to do, why I was doing it. The Bridging the Gap program, in my opinion, sort of put it together just in a more academic process that I could understand. And now I can actually document it.

And if I am meeting or doing, let’s say trying to put together a focus group, before putting together the focus group I learned from the Bridging the Gap program, why not send out a memo first or an email first indicating what type of meeting, what you want to accomplish with the meeting, who you plan to be there, and leave some of those assets in place prior to the meeting before just showing up? And if you look at any of my projects in the past, I really was the guy to knock on the door and show up and I didn’t have an outline in place. But again, in the past we’ve managed to get through it. I just think I kind of learned to get through in an efficient way.

Andrea Wilson: So that framework that was provided through the process allowed you to recognize, okay, we need to stop and get oriented. Right? That’s one of the big things that comes out of the program. Thank you so much for making that observation. That’s one of the big things that Bridging the Gap does is to share that framework with you and help you to kind of figure out how to get organized, right, instead of just jumping off the deep end in the beginning and getting down in the weeds of things, standing back, getting oriented, acclimating yourself to who’s, who.

What does the business want? And getting to know what’s going on here? What is the as-is process? And let’s think about a methodical way of approaching gathering these requirements. Those are great takeaways from the program. You kind of jumped the gun here because my next question was which module really resonated with you? It sounds like that initial business process analysis, as well as that kind of essentials at the end of bringing anything together. But is there anything else that really resonated with you? Any other module? We talked about use case and wireframes, data modeling. Anything that stood out and resonated with you?

Wendell White: To be honest, yes. It’s hard to say which one, and what I mean by that is. In managing projects in the company that I’m with every module, we’re in the middle of implementing and working through now. So my natural the section with the ERDs, because I’ve done in the past, data transitions and system migrations. I’ve done that in the past. So for me, kind of being, I say a past computer guy and kind of one of the reasons I moved away from being the computer guy is because I did find that I liked being a people person.

So where my natural is, yes, migrating systems and building code. With the current project that I’m on now, I’ve been asked to code and develop. I’ve been asked to migrate systems. And, again, they hired a project manager that just kind of made me realize they have no idea of their as-is state. So that gave me an opportunity to sort of dig into the module to understand how important is the as-is state, the current state and understanding there’s a difference between the as-is and the future state.

So, why enjoy the opportunity that the company has given me to sort of pull it apart a little bit in terms of the company. They’re buying new systems. They’re getting new software programs. I have a product owner that’s doing something. It’s the Bridging the Gap program that at least allowed me to step back, put a process in place that I was able to share with the director, really with the sponsor to say, as long as we stick to the process that I’ve put in place, and the only reason I was able to come up with the process to give them and feel really confident that it’s a process that works, if we follow it, was the Bridging the Gap program.

And I will admit one of the comments you had made in one of the projects that I turned in; I forget which module. We were about to have a big meeting and you had put in your notes, make sure you ask these questions. And it was the set of questions that I do have someone that’s an influencer in the group that really doesn’t like to answer questions and really likes to get through a meeting very quickly.

I remember keeping the meeting a little bit longer than usual saying, hey, I have to get these questions answered before we move on. And they were really critical questions to where we were trying to go. So, I really can’t say I had a particular module that I enjoyed because in all honesty ,my goal when the class ended, was to get to the level of super BA status. And that is where I want people in the group, in the company that I work for now to ask, “Hey, Wendell, you put it in a number of processes, we appreciated you working with us. It was rough, but we want you to actually work with this team.” So that’s the piece that I kind of want to get to eventually deploy all the different modules with the company that I’m with, because again, they are going, literally through every aspect, every module within the Bridging the Gap program that you guys laid out.

Andrea Wilson: That’s awesome. I’m super glad to hear that. I like that super BA status and it sounds like you’re getting some really good feedback from your senior business folks. I read some of the comments that you mentioned about gaining some foundational knowledge and then gaining that confidence. It sounds like you’re sharing some of the documents that you built. So you got some hands-on experience and you are using that in your workplace. So you got kind of a bonus and able to do that through the ACBA program.

You’ve mentioned meeting agendas. Isn’t that awesome to have those agendas to help you to get off the ground in your meetings and to do that preparation. So it’s great. It does sound like you got a lot from that section as well. Having those agendas before you had these meetings, whether it was a discovery or to go over something existing. So, I’m glad to hear that those artifacts are working for you. Any tips or tricks?

Wendell White: Well, I will mention the process flow diagram. That’s the document, I believe, that’s the first module. That’s the document that we had, large company had a process flow, and I know that it was in a different department and I noticed their process flow diagram. It was put together by a senior BA. It had no swim lanes and it needed swim lanes, but again, it was a different department. It wasn’t my job. However, the department that I was reporting to was in the process of putting a process flow in place. It was just by fate that the Bridging the Gap program started that module first.

That was the one document that I will say I enjoy it because again, when I was provided my laptop and all the information with the company, it had most of the programs I’ve worked with in the past, particularly Visio. However, I’ve never done a process flowchart with swim lane diagrams before until Bridging the Gap. I’ve used Visio for a number of years. I don’t know how.

But long story short, I put together the process flow that really the following year, meaning this year in 2022, they adopted that process flow that I’d put out there in the Wiki. And it was my assignment that I turned into Bridging the Gap because Laura and the team did a very thorough job in just putting together the process flow diagram, putting together the legend, putting together the information out there that allowed sort of a new team, even though Bridging the Gap was working with me, it allowed the new team to see, okay, how did we come up with this end document, which is the process flow diagram.

And I was able to walk the entire team through a process flow diagram with minimal modifications. But we now have an actual process flow diagram for an engineering group with the company that I work for that’s able to look at it, work toward it, improve it and gain that buy-in that I learned from the Bridging the Gap program. So many things that I have to tell you that the program put together in a very short period of time. But again, I only say that because we only have you guys from what, August to January. It went fast for me though, again, a lot of work, it was longer days for me, but for me, it was a work in process because I was able to use what I was learning real time with the company that I’m currently working with now.

Andrea Wilson: There’s a ton of compliments in there. But I do have to give you one because Bridging the Gap didn’t put together that process flow chart, you did, based on the knowledge that you gained in the program. I’m glad to hear that it is working well for you and the process that you have put together to review that with your stakeholders and your team. It is producing really good fruit for you.

I’m glad to hear that was your work. That was the hands-on work that you did as a part of the program. So kudos to you for sticking to it and building a great product. I did work with you directly. You did work with a lot of the instructors, but I did work with you in reviewing some of that information and you did great work. So thank you for that. Like I said, we got to see some of the feedback after you went through the program, which is the reason we really wanted to talk to you. We like working with the participants, seeing where they came from, where they’re going.

What’s next? So any tips, advice you’d like to give to anyone that might be following your footsteps?

Wendell White: Yeah, the tips I would say is follow the process, follow the program. I do think an apply type of program, it’s almost ingenious to take to, literally, have just hands on work. And I just think that’s difficult to do in how the program put it together. It just makes sense. It flows.

Tips? Like I said, I believe the program sends out information that’s accessible. You can access it at any of the time of the day or night. So for me, a lot of times, yes, I did have to download the audio and I did listen to it while I was at work, but I felt good about listening to it at work. Not that I was not doing my job, but it was helping me improve what I was turning in to my senior level managers and so forth. So, so for me, I just say stick with the program and be open to maybe a little bit of a different way of obtaining a certification.

And yes, the certifications are great. And if anything, I would say if there was a little bit more time where I haven’t had an opportunity to really tell anyone about The Bridging the Gap program and the certification because I just have a lot of work that the company has me doing and it takes me a while just to at least relax and say, “Hey, you know what? I got the certification. I think is pretty cool.” And there are a lot of opportunities out there for business analysts that really know what they’re doing in terms of understanding that it is a process. It’s doable. It just takes a little bit of learning.

Andrea Wilson: Nice. Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you. We’ve gotten where we wanted to go here. Is there anything else that you’d like to share?

Wendell White: No, just, I look forward to getting the emails and I think I still get a few emails from you guys and  learning even more Bridging the Gap II, the sequel. But again, my pursuit, like I said, I do remember in the program the super BA status, quite possibly just events. Actually, I do think one day we’ll get in the training and it would probably more be on the BA side than the project management side only because I do enjoy and starting to kind of really understand that whole BA stuff.

Andrea Wilson: Well, I’m glad we could be a part of starting your BA career, that you’ve had an opportunity to go through the program, that you’re seeing success from the program. And maybe thinking about doing some training as a BA yourself. Bridging the Gap works to build the business analyst career one business analyst at a time, and we’re glad to see the success that you’re having.

Wendell White: Wow. Nice.

Andrea Wilson: All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Wendell White: You’re welcome.

>>How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes.

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

What we love about Stephanie’s story is how the program provided her with concrete, quantifiable skills to increase her value to her clients no matter what the project is.

In this interview, you’ll discover how:

• The program provided Stephanie with the proper training so she could stop ad-hocking her business skills together through online searches.
• Stephanie adapted to complete the program despite various life circumstances coming up.
• Stephanie uses the skills she learned in the program to better serve her contract clients.

Michael: Hi everybody. This is Michael with Bridging the Gap, one of the instructors here. Today I am here with Stephanie Belhomme. She is one of our previous participants. She is currently a Salesforce business analyst and is joining us from New Jersey. We’re going to get a little bit into her journey with the program. But first of all we want to thank Stephanie for joining us and give her a chance to say hello.

Stephanie: Hi, everyone. Pleasure to be here. And thank you, Michael and team at Bridging the Gap for the invitation. One side bit, I am both a business analyst and a Salesforce admin. So I can’t drop my admin cred.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. That had a big part of your project as well. We definitely need to include that for sure. Awesome. I am pretty excited to learn a little bit more about your journey, even though I know quite a bit because I was your instructor, but I also want to hear a little bit more about your story along that journey from your perspective as well.

My first question for you today is to take us back to last year and tell us about before you joined The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program where were you at in your career and what were you looking to achieve by joining this program?

Stephanie: Sure. I would have to go back a little bit further than that to when Laura Brandenburg and Bridging the Gap sort of hit my radar.

It had to be during my most major contract within a corporate environment. And it was somewhere between 2019 when I started and then late 2020 when I ended. Definitely in the midst of that or a little bit before that Laura hit my radar. I ended up watching a couple of her YouTube videos and she just stuck. I just kept following her content. I think I signed up and would get interesting little tips and blurbs in my email box. Some I would read. But over time, the first resonance just grew more and more, the more I got to hear from her. The thing that hit me with Laura is that she came up with a really succinct, direct way to explain that business analysis is a thing.

Michael: Yes.

Stephanie: It’s a process. You basically brought sanity to a process, because I think I also discovered during our cohort that I wasn’t the only one that was sort of ad hocking and learning these skills in job, in process, or in project. And when you do that and you do that over years, yes, you develop strengths and weaknesses in the overall tools and structure. We’ll talk about this later, but without the cohesive sort of 360 degree view of all of the components, how they work together, how it fits together, you don’t know what you don’t know. Her conversations stuck because it was like, oh wait, I can bring a bit more sanity to the thing that I’m doing. When you’re doing it, you’re sort of neck deep or eyeball deep into a running project and it’s hard.

Michael: Yeah. And when you’re kind of coming into the world of business analysis, a lot of people still don’t understand it. A lot of practitioners are looking for an actual framework. They’re like, I need a BA framework. With Laura being able to outline that eight step business analyst process that you’re referring to, it really adds a lot of clarity. There will be some things that might shift around a little bit, but it really gives a core type of framework for people or a guide for people to kind of go through the process and feel like they kind of have some way to navigate through this whole thing.

Stephanie: Right, exactly. And to touch on that just a little bit. I ended up going full all in into the Salesforce ecosystem because of the first company that I was working at, a nonprofit that had Salesforce. And I ended up doing all of the business analysis work along with a bunch of other factors and a bunch of IT things going on at once that I helped sort of get a handle on. But I didn’t realize that I was doing business analysis work until much later in my Salesforce journey to get more experience. And then when I hit Laura’s class, it was like, “Oh, my God. I’ve been doing this for a long time and didn’t know.”

Michael: That’s what that’s called.

Stephanie: Right. Before the people I worked with didn’t have names for all this stuff, but yeah.

Michael: And, and you know what? That’s so common. I think that’s one of the most. The, one of the funnest part about being in this line of work is I love when people get that aha moment and are like, “Oh, that’s what it’s called? I’ve been doing that.” Or, “Oh, I can start doing this, then make this and get this result.” I think that’s very common and we always love to hear that part.

Stephanie: And it’s funny. The last thing I’ll say about it is that Laura would mention this in her videos, but there was something that was more impactful being in the cohort and in the class that you really got that this is a multi-disciplinary, multi-sector, multi-industry skill. She would point out too, this is a high value skill. But I knew it from my Salesforce work, but then again, being in our cohort and seeing the diversity of people and practitioners from all kinds of industries, like, oh yeah. Six figures, high value, business bottom line return on investment, costs and savings culture. All of it.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. And we’re thankful for that. That’s what we’re here for is to allow people to recognize that they are valuable and they can, hopefully the business analyst certification program is going to allow you to command more. Like, yeah, this is what I’m able to do. How can you help me? So great. That’s awesome.

All right. So let’s talk a little bit about the program. You now have your ACBA. In regard to your success with that, what are some of your key or main takeaways from the program?

Stephanie: Sure. I think the first and biggest one was commitment. That was crucial and huge. As you know, throughout this project, I stumbled upon some significant points of grief and loss. I mean, I think they won. If we put this in the context of the timeline, we did the summer session which started around July and ended in December. I’m, first-generation. Both of my parents are Haitian. In July in the summer, we had the assassination of the president. And I still had family that’s back at home. We have family all over the world, but the family that’s at home, we’re still connected to. So that happened.

And then there were the floods and the earthquakes.

Michael: I remember that. Yeah.

Stephanie: And we’re still going through COVID deaths and things like that as well. Throughout that six-month period, there were these hiccups of I remember that first weekend and I think I typed you an email. I submitted my first module. It was, I want to say shameful, but in context, pathetic. But in context, the best that I could do. And I thought, God, I want to quit before I had even started. How is this going to work.

Michael: But you definitely pushed through. I was so proud of you for persevering and pushing past that. I was like, I don’t know if she’s going to make it, but you did. And I thought that was absolutely awesome because to be going through a program at this level and to be going through the things that you were going through with your family and other loved ones, I think that’s definitely worth noting because that, that was a big, big hiccup and a lot of other people probably could’ve just been like, look, I just can’t do this program right now, but you definitely kept pushing forward. So I’m definitely proud of you for that.

Stephanie: Thank you. And I have to say to your credit and the credit of the team as well, you guys did an excellent job of holding space for me and giving me that gentle push. Not too hard, not too little. Like whatever decision you need to make, we’re here. But it was really very special and very supportive because I think any other group would have been like, “Well, thank you for your money. Peace out. Be well.” But you guys were not that. And I could kind of feel you were gunning for me in the background. You kept your poker face. I didn’t know until now, but it really made a difference. Just the sincerity of the emails. It’s not like anybody wrote me a long love letter, but it was just sort of, this is what we can do. We worked around some things and then it was like, okay, just show up, Stephanie, just show up. And that kind of got me through each piece.

I would say that the second thing that was sort of like neck and neck in terms of challenging was if I go into like the modules and the components of the content, the data dictionary was probably the most. That and the final module, which was the culmination of everything we had done.

And I say that because the final one where even though we had covered everything else prior, right and it was sort of the culmination and we passed with flying colors, so there’s a certain relief, it was really that test of being able to sort of back yourself out of a cul-de-sac of hyper analysis. As an analyst, we like to analyze things and you can overthink something and then make it more difficult than it needs to be. But then being able to be like, okay, let me reference the frame. Let me rethink this. Step back and go back and then look at it like, oh, okay, wait a minute. There’s a simpler way, more elegant way, a more logical way to do this. And then it was literally the test of can I integrate all of these pieces into this one framework?

Michael: Yeah. And I think your perspective is actually pretty common that a lot of people do struggle with the data modeling module the most, because that’s what most business analysts are least familiar with. So yeah, definitely people struggle with that, but also, the final module. The other three modules are much more guided. It’s kind of like, this is right. This is how you do it. It’s a little more like either you do it or you don’t, or you do it correctly or incorrectly, and we give you feedback.

But with that final module, we have to bring everything together. It’s a lot more subjective. It’s more about telling what you did and giving your opinions and thoughts on it. It really requires you to think in a different way. Like, oh, now I have to now have to really put it out there.

Stephanie: And one thing that made it, I guess I won’t say easier because it was hard to do was that as I sort of, doing the summations of each step, it was really easy to see how I could be in a meeting and having to make the business case and defend this position for myself. Or if I had a team, or the other admins on the team would say, “Hey, if we do it this way, it’s going to cost us money. If we do it this way, It’s going to cost us time. If we do it this way and find the middle ground, we might be all much happier.” And it was really sort of, I could see those moments of those conversations, both past ones and future ones.

Michael: Yeah. Wow. Well, yeah, I’m glad. And that’s the thing. We want you to be able to apply the concepts. It’s not a theoretical course. It’s an application course and application and certification. So that’s definitely a relief to hear you say that.

Stephanie: I would say with the data dictionary, the thing that made that one hard that I had encountered that tool before. Doing implementations, you often have to do that kind of thing. But the level of detail and the degree to which we really dove into the nitty gritty and needing to reconcile discrepancies and the different types of forms of data, all of that work that happened in an Excel document before we even have a conversation with the business owners and stuff.

It made me feel a little ashamed for the past teams and projects I was on where we just sped through that as fast as possible because of project pressures. We’ve just got to get it done and move on to the next step. Knowing really the full breadth of that and all the places that you can actually have a better cultural impact or process impact, or again, bottom line impact, I will definitely be taking my time in the future just because it’s like, oh, this is what it could actually do.

Michael: Yeah. That’s the old saying that ignorance is bliss. Now that you know what’s involved, it’s like now I got to really apply these concepts.

Stephanie: Right.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. That’s cool. All right. So tell us a little bit about your career now. How have you progressed, kind of a good lead in. How have you progressed in your career now that you’ve gone through the program, now that you have your ACBA? Tell about how any changes that have occurred from that?

Stephanie: Sure. I will say that every opportunity I get to use one of these tools or introduce it, I do, and it’s fun to. The project, the Blackstone launchpad project at the community college where I teach that I’ve helped to launch, just this past month we got into the nitty gritty around the reporting stuff and what that’s going to look like and what the lift, the labor, both the emotional labor and typical labor will look like. And it was interesting because then I pulled out the glossary that I made.

Michael: Yeah. Because it was an actual project that you were on.

Stephanie: Yeah, exactly. I pull out the glossary. My academic champion, my co-director, and then the folks who are the lead point people on the software that we’re using for that project were there. I needed to make a point in terms of we’ve gotten super familiar with the software. We understand the back end and the front end and all these things. But once you pull a report, we need to know what these things mean on a screen and then these sub memories.

I only understood that because I had done the glossary for us in terms of what is it that we want to measure? What is it that we want to track? What is the value, both quantitative and qualitative? And I came up with this glossary for us in terms of all of the things in the outcomes we want for the students. But now when you now have to match that with what’s on the screen and what’s already in the software that they built, I was like, okay, how much of, what we want is in there already and how much is not and what can we configure? That document is screen-shared and every time I screenshare it they’re like, “Wow, Stephanie, this is so well organized. This is amazing. This is like,” I’m the guy. I’m like, “Thank you.”

Michael: Yeah. That’s pretty amazing. Wow. Awesome. And so what does that mean to you personally, being able to have that type of feedback that it’s like, not just, “Okay, great job,” it was kind of like they were actually impressed now.

Stephanie: One part is just pride because I know the effort that went into understanding the tools and doing all that work. But then the other part is just how much more should these conversations unfold around a project? We’re not getting caught up in either, let’s say, the ego level of, I want this and I want that and the different, you parties. We’re getting down to just very logical. What do we need? And does the tool match what we need? If it doesn’t, then we start to have conversations about those things. So we’re actually working towards solving the problems rather than getting caught up in all these other details. It just streamlines conversations so, so well.

Michael: That is awesome. I’m so happy to hear what you’re telling me right now, I just, I really am. Because like I said, we have a purpose with the program, but when we actually get to hear and see the results, we’re always super thrilled. There are always some good ones. It’s just something that never gets old. So, awesome.

Stephanie: Definitely. I would say that on a larger macro level with my career, I had continuously postponed getting my Salesforce admin cert simply because I’d be eyeballs deep in a project and then 40 plus hours a week later, that aspiration would just get pushed off, pushed off, pushed off, right to the next project, to the next project or in between projects and just never happen. And part of that was before I actually really wanted the cert, I wanted to have enough experience that getting the certification was then contextual and experiential. I was just studying and cramming for something and then it had no meaning to me. By the time I got busy enough where, okay, I’ve got a bunch of experience, but then I had no time to do it.

The business analysis piece then became the more dominant thing of, I want to do. ASAP, like I’ll do the Salesforce admin cert anytime, but I want to do this ASAP because it directly spoke to all of that pre prep work before you get into the admin stuff of configuring things and doing all the declarative coding and all of the work that you do with the developers who do hard coding.

All of that work in Salesforce, there’s the customer success aspect. And then there’s business analysis, which I think is becoming more formalized now, but so much of what I took away from our program with BTG is that the business analysis work encompasses both the customer success piece, as well as it happened to have the technical skills in terms of my case with the admin piece. It bridges both sides of that.

Michael: It bridges the gap.

Stephanie: Right, exactly. And it’s funny because for me, I really have found my groove in contracting. I really love it. And part of the reason I love it is because it gives me a certain amount of latitude that if I was an employee, I would be censored by either the blind spots that are entrenched or other things that are habitual, things that are entrenched in the culture where I don’t get to speak to things that come up or that I notice in a way that is fully let’s say transparent, open or multi-level right. In terms of the stakeholders.

As a contractor, it’s sort of like, I can bring my full professionalism and my full self with always great care and respect obviously, but there’s this sense that I’m not bridled in any way.

You’re paying me as a contractor to bring my fullest and my best. And the tools with BTG. Just let me do that, that much more. I want to be able to develop my LLC and grow my business so that I can deliberately pick the projects, the clients and the things that are most interesting to me to work on.

Michael: That’s pretty amazing. It’s actually a great lead in. Which is kind of like the opposite of this is that if you invested in the Blueprint or the ACBA program where do you think you’d be today?

Stephanie: The Salesforce cert would definitely be checked off the box. I’m working on that now. Finally, the breathing from study. And probably hopped into my next contract treading water. There’s the analogy of the duck on a placid lake or placid body of water and you just see them gracefully moving along the surface as if it’s nothing, but underneath they’re paddling like hell. Because of BTG, I’m saving a bunch of calories. The paddling is not so frantic.

Michael: Yeah. Wow.

Stephanie: So without it, I would still be paddling frantically and just the facade of that grace along the water. But underneath it all, like just wondering like, oh my gosh.

Michael: Chaos underneath, right?

Stephanie: Yes.

Michael: That’s awesome. Great, great, great. Well, I think that is nearing the conclusion of the questions I have to ask. Again, I want to thank you so much for your time.

Is there anything else that you want to share? Any words of encouragement for anyone or anything like that?

Stephanie: The first thing I would say is if you choose to do the program, do it eyes wide open. It’s not easy by any means, but it is so worth it. It’s so rewarding. And I would say that, thank God it’s not longer than it is.

Michael: Yeah, it’s pretty long.

Stephanie: But also thank God it’s not shorter than it is. I think you guys hit the right sort of sweet spot. If you go in, just go in with eyes wide open and it’s worth the effort. Don’t give up. It is so worth the effort.

I didn’t realize this, I think, maybe until talking to you, but the validation that comes with understanding, like, “Oh my goodness, I’ve been doing this all along,” or “I know this tool, I know that.” But then also the places where you had blind spots and you didn’t know this other way that you could use this tool or this whole other tool altogether that you were never introduced to but would complement and supplement this one over here.

All of this stuff that comes together, it’s both like there’s the validation part, but I think the confidence comes from that, that you leave with from deliberately engaging with what you know, and also improve and fill in the gaps of what you don’t know to then make your projects, your teams and the culture of that experience so much better.

Michael: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Absolutely. Wow. This has been a great interview I must admit.

Stephanie: Agree. Same here. Yeah.

Michael: So again, thank you so much for your time. It was such an honor to speak to you today. I know your story is going to help a ton of people out there who are interested in the, The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program and the ACBA program, but also people that are just interested in business analysis or maybe Salesforce.

Thanks again. We will catch you next time.

Stephanie: My pleasure. And thank you.

Michael: You’re very welcome.

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The concept of mental fitness is all about our ability to deal with life’s challenges big and small, with positive emotions (like empathy, compassion, creativity, curiosity) instead of a negative emotions (like fear, anxiety, shame, and stress). And the end result of being mentally fit is being able to achieve our goals more easily.

I felt this topic was so important to the business analysis community, that I invited Michael Glazer, a Certified Leadership Coach to talk about the specific mental fitness challenges business analysts are most likely to face, and how to address them.

Laura Brandenburg: Hello. I’m Laura Brandenburg here today with Michael Glazer. Hi, Michael.

Michael Glazer: Hi Laura.

Laura Brandenburg: Great to have you here.

Michael Glazer: I’m so excited to be here with you.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes. Yes. Thank you. I’m really excited to talk about mental fitness today. Just for those who don’t know you, you are a certified leadership coach and consultant. You’ve worked with leaders at really top companies across the globe. I find it fascinating that you’re in Tokyo and that you speak both English and Japanese. So I feel like you have a lot to bring to this conversation.

Michael Glazer: Thanks.

Laura Brandenburg: Obviously, our community is business analysis professionals and in a corporate space and you help people in professional spaces with mental fitness. And so we wanted to talk a little bit more about that. It seems really ripe for that. You just shared a little bit about what mental fitness is and why we should be concerned about it.

Michael Glazer: Sure. So, essentially mental fitness is our ability to deal with life’s challenges, big and small, with a positive mindset instead of a negative mindset. And when we’re able to do that, three really good things happen. One, it gives us the ability to reach peak performance. It gives us the ability to increase our wellbeing, our peace of mind. And, then, the third thing it does is it gives us the ability to create and maintain high quality relationships.

Laura Brandenburg: Which are all important.

Michael Glazer: Yeah. I can’t think of anybody who doesn’t either want those or doesn’t want a little bit more of those.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes. It’s interesting, as I was reflecting on this idea of fitness, because the first comparison I made in my head was to mental toughness, but it’s really, I think from a metaphorical perspective, toughness is that I can handle anything. And fitness feels more like I’m agile and I have strength. I have these multiplicity of abilities to handle, maybe, life’s challenges, as opposed to just, I can tough it out. Is that a good metaphor to be thinking about what this is like in the real world?

Michael Glazer: In ways, yes.  I’d say to add some contrast to what you’re talking about. When we say, “Meeting life’s challenges with a positive instead of a negative mindset,” negative mindset means that we’re operating from negative emotions or negative self-talk that are governed by things like fear, anxiety, shame, stress, and anger.

And so instead of that, mental fitness helps us tap into powers like empathy, compassion, creativity, curiosity, big picture thinking, purpose and clear-headed laser-focused action. That’s really the difference that we’re talking about.

Laura Brandenburg: I could just feel myself calming down as you’re talking about that. Body response.

Michael Glazer: Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: So our community, which you know a little bit about, because I was on your podcast too, but we’re business analysts. And so we tend to be very analytical people. We also have a strong business acumen. So we have, really, a dual perspective on a software business change project. I think on the positive side, this can look like really understanding the problem that needs to be solved. Getting everyone on the same page, really understanding the needs at a very detailed level and getting to the requirements. But like everything, there’s that shadow side too, which is maybe where that negative side can come out. We can be perceived as overly critical or hypervigilant about an outcome and care more about things than sometimes anybody else does. Or we can feel that way.

We might want to feel like we need to make everyone happy on a project or also just being a stickler for the details. That can be a little bit, maybe we can get worried about being overly detailed, but also, then, worried about if we miss a detail.

So what, from an emotional or, sorry, a mental fitness perspective, what would be some of the challenges somebody like that might deal with?

Michael Glazer: It’s interesting that you mentioned things like being a stickler for details or being hyper-vigilant or being, or keeping everybody happy, being a people pleaser. These are three ways that we actually self-sabotage ourselves when we get into these modes. And each one of these three areas has its own mental fitness challenge.

For example, I’ll start with a stickler. When we find ourselves in stickler mode, one of the mental fitness challenges around this is being able to have a level of discernment and awareness so that we make sure that when we’re managing to what stakeholders, I think in a business analyst context, what stakeholders are actually expecting us to deliver as opposed to some kind of internal high standards that we have.

I think this is part of the reasons why this can be a challenge is because when that stickler is when we’re in stickler mode, again, a form of self-sabotage, what we’re hearing in our heads is something that says, “I have to aim for perfection. Perfection is good. Perfection is required. Other people, they’re lazy, they’re sloppy. They’re just not up to the task.” And so, when you’re in stickler mode and you’re looking around and you’re observing, people tend to get frustrated, tend to get angry that they’re not doing things up to our standards, and we’re not doing them right.

What people may not realize is that other people may actually be angry at us when we get ourselves into stickler mode, because they’re thinking, why am I always being criticized? Or if they think, “I’m actually doing what the stakeholders or the sponsors requesting, but still I’m being held to a higher standard. Nothing’s ever good enough.” This can create a sense of resentment. So being able to discern and have that awareness is one of the challenges for the stickler.

The  Mental Fitness Challenges Business Analysts Are Most Likely to Face

Laura Brandenburg: So, that’s a perfect example. In that case, how might somebody who has that stickler mindset or that stickler challenge, how might they deal with that? How might they try to overcome it?

Michael Glazer: One thing that a stickler can do is, and this may sound like common sense for people coming from a business analyst background, is just pause for a second and do an evidence check. Whether it’s going back to the project charter, whether it’s going to a requirements document or something like that, what’s the evidence of what I’m supposed to deliver here? And is there any difference between what I’m seeing in these documents and what I’m actually trying to work towards? One is just having, again, the discernment and the awareness to be able to take the time to do that.

Another thing that somebody in stickler mode might do would be actually share this tendency with teammates and stakeholders. Sometimes I know I get myself into stickler for detail mode. My guess is that if someone made the choice to do that, they’d probably earn trust as a result of making themselves vulnerable around this. They could even take that a step further, I think. They can, for example, invite people to have conversations or give them explicit permission to do, say, a stickler check. If team members get the feeling like, “Uh-oh, the stickler’s in action,” having permission to actually talk about it as opposed to something that they fear may actually create relationship or conflict could be a way to help team and also help performance.

Laura Brandenburg: I love that. And I also feel like a lot of times where this comes up for business analysts, and we talked about this in your podcast. I’ll leave the link to that too, but because the role is ill-defined. So the stickler Is really an expectation that we have about our role that is in conflict with what the stakeholder might have about our role. So just getting that all out on the table can have a lot of positive impact.

Michael Glazer: Yes, exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: How about the people pleaser? I feel like that affects a lot of people, myself included.

Michael Glazer: Yeah. I know. I get myself into people pleaser mode sometimes as well. I think this is common amongst consultants and coaches, actually.

For the people pleaser. I think one of the mental fitness challenges is about developing a really strong sense of self-worth, practicing self-compassion, self-empathy, because for a lot of people, when they get themselves into pleaser mode, again, a form of self-sabotage, they have difficulty saying no, or they say yes, without realizing that they can put reasonable conditions to the support that they’re offering people.

I think for people pleasers what’s going on is they’re being governed, primarily, by feelings or emotions, like fear or anxiety. They want to earn people’s acceptance. And they’re worried that by saying no, it could damage the relationship. They could lose a relationship with somebody who’s important to them.

And so here, one thing that the pleaser can do to practice self-compassion would be something like, imagine yourself talking to a five-year old. If you had a five-year-old who said to you, “I want to advocate for myself.” You wouldn’t crouch down to the five-year-old and point your finger at him or her and say, “How dare you? That’s so selfish.” You’d be out of your mind. You would say, “You’re valuable, of course you matter, your needs matter,” and you would praise them and encourage them to directly express what they need to other people so that their needs can be fulfilled.

And so this is the kind of thing that if we learn to practice on our own, could help us set and protect boundaries that not only help our sense of wellbeing and performance, but also help relationships.

I think one of the counterintuitive things here is that oftentimes by saying “no” inappropriate ways, we actually earn more acceptance and respect than by saying “yes,” all the time.

Laura Brandenburg: Oh, my goodness. I think that’s so true. Especially in a role, like the business analyst is where you can very easily start to take on so many responsibilities and then it weighs you down. Saying “no” to the things that are outside of your scope or to requirements or needs that are really outside the scope of the project, it does position you at a higher level, and that earns credibility, for sure. I’m imagining in your consulting, you’ve done things like this where you’ve had the “no” actually elevate your reputation or credibility.

Michael Glazer: Yeah. Yeah, of course. And actually, even before my consulting work started a decade ago, I was a global functional head at the IT division of Morgan Stanley. And I worked closely with business analysts on a regular basis. One of the things that came up frequently was a sponsor or a stakeholder would ask to add a feature.

That’s pretty common. If you say “yes” to that without having a conversation of, “Well, that’s going to cost a week on the timeline,” that can create problems for the team. Being able to say what our team does is valuable. “We need an extra week to do this right,” is the kind of conversation if it’s done well, I think most reasonable stakeholders, if not all of them, are going to respect.

Another one that comes up in my consulting is the pleaser is afraid to demand what their services are worth. The client’s asking for a discount, the client’s asking to over-service and you want to say “yes” to make them happy. And then you wind up making yourself angry because you didn’t really support yourself or advocate for yourself. I think this is another pattern that’s pretty common.

Laura Brandenburg: I can identify with all of those things at certain points in my career as well. We’ve talked about some of the challenges and how to overcome them. I still feel as if there would be a significant investment to say, “Okay, this is the year I’m going to work on my emotional fitness.” So how would someone know, with everything that might be on their plate or the potential opportunities that they have, that this is an area that’s really going to make a difference in their life or their career? This is their next step to work on this particular area.

Michael Glazer: Sure. Yeah. I think there are two parts to that question, right? There’s the, “What kind of results can I expect,” part of the question and then there’s what’s the time investment? How much time do I have to invest to actually see these results?

Talking about the results first, I’m aware of a body of academic research. It’s about 200 studie that collectively has studied more than 275,000 people. What the results say are that people who have higher levels of mental fitness, not only do they earn more, but they’re more successful in business, in marriage, in health, friendships, creativity as a whole bunch of different aspects of life.

Just to give you a couple of data points that may be relevant for a business analyst, project teams are managed by leaders who have high levels of mental fitness, performed 31% better, on average, than other like teams.

Another relevant data point is that a project manager who has high levels of mental fitness make more accurate and higher quality decisions with less effort than their peers do.

Because I like threes, I’ll add a third one in there, not so related, but for salespeople; salespeople who have high levels of mental fitness, sell 37% more than their counterparts who have low mental fitness. So there’s tons of data to support this.

In terms of time, how much time do you need? The initial, the thing that’s most important here is that people make a commitment to invest some substantial time upfront to build the habits that make this possible. And specifically, they need 15 minutes of practice on a daily basis for six to eight weeks. When I work with clients on this, it’s that 15 minutes a day for six weeks plus between one and two hours a week to learn and discuss the different skills needed for developing mental fitness.

Laura Brandenburg: You said “significant,” and then you said such a small number. That’s nothing.

Michael Glazer: I’m glad to hear you say that. That’s like less than, what, 3% of people’s waking time, but it can sound like a lot to busy professionals.

Laura Brandenburg: For sure. And I just want to emphasize as well, I feel like mental fitness has been a thread in all the coaching that I’ve received throughout the years. And I’ve shared before how much I invest in my own personal professional development. And these days it’s more on the personal development in that’s where the external results come from. The things like the salary that you might not want, or the title or the salary you do want that you’re not getting or the title that you do want, but are not getting, often, it feels like this external thing, but it’s like the results or the work starts in here. And it has a multiplier effect too. So you start it and then it just, it gets easier as you go. And the momentum tends to build upon itself. At least…

Michael Glazer: No, that’s exactly right. That’s exactly right. So when we feel like we have to push through and we’re using words like I have to, I should, I must. Typically, we’re being driven by the forces that are responsible for our self-sabotage. When we’re in a mode where it’s generative, where we feel like we’re in a state of ease and flow, things are coming naturally because we’re using the parts of our brain responsible for the kinds of skills I mentioned before, empathy, creativity, curiosity, and so on.

This is where we’re an ease and flow. And it’s much easier to not only achieve success, but to achieve happiness in the process of being successful.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes. Oh, there’s so many more things I could ask you around this, but I know that we’ve got a little bit. So tell me for somebody who does want to dig deeper, because you’ve really, you’ve piqued our interest about what this looks like.

What are some resources that they might explore?

Michael Glazer: Yeah. If you’re going to pick up one, and I’ll just kind of go back to this, this people don’t have a lot of time. If you’re going to pick one source, what I would recommend is a book called Positive Intelligence by Shirzad Chamine. It’s a New York Times bestseller. It’s been translated into 20 languages. I think there’s a good chance, no matter where in the world people are tuning in from and what their native language is, they have a pretty good shot of reading it in a familiar enough language.

The other thing that they might also check out is the website also called positiveintelligence.com. If you’re interested in knowing where you self-sabotage and what those patterns are, there’s a free five minute assessment you can take and get the results there.

Laura Brandenburg: You also coach personally on this. If somebody wanted to learn more about what you offer, how would they do that?

Michael Glazer: Three ways you can contact me. One is on LinkedIn. It’s linkedin.com/n/learningpro. You can also find my website, glazercoaching.com or my company website, which is peoplefocusconsulting.com.

Laura Brandenburg: All of those, we’ll hook them up with you around the coast.

Michael Glazer: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: I know there’s so much more that you could offer around this, but any last takeaways or tips, something that you hope that somebody will take with them from this conversation today?

Michael Glazer: Just to give it a try and to invest in yourself. This has been a game changer for so many people. More than 500,000 people worldwide have gone through this type of mental fitness program. And what I hear most often is people saying. “Wow. This has really worked for me. Now, can you do this with my partner? Now can you do this with my team?” So give it a try.

If you have any questions at all, I promise I will respond to each and every message that I receive. So don’t hesitate. Don’t let your saboteurs get in the way of reaching out and contacting me. Let’s start a conversation and see where it goes.

Laura Brandenburg: All right. Well, thank you so much. I would really encourage anybody who’s interested in learning more, reach out to Michael and find out more. These kinds of investments definitely pay dividends when you’re thinking about your career.

Thank you so much, Michael.

Michael Glazer: Thanks Laura. It’s been great.

About Michael Glazer

Michael Glazer is a Certified Leadership Coach, Organizational Development Consultant, and Facilitator. His client work spans 15 countries across four continents and focuses on helping leaders take care of people while taking care of business.

He is based in Tokyo, speaks English and Japanese, and has worked with leaders at major corporations, including Johnson & Johnson, Bayer, and Mitsubishi. Michael has also guest-lectured at Kyoto University and at the United States Air Force Academy.

Michael is a Japan business specialist. His coaching focuses on helping Western leaders in Japan overcome the workplace challenges they face as foreigners so they can create long-term value in performance and wellbeing for themselves. He has facilitated leadership- and coaching-skills workshops for thousands of Fortune 500 professionals over the past 20 years.

Before becoming a leadership coach and consultant, Michael served as a global functional head in the technology division of Morgan Stanley and was a commercial leader at Dell where he grew a multimillion-dollar business 4X in three years.

Michael earned a BA from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, an MA from the University of Colorado, and an external coaching certificate from Teachers College Columbia University (C3P). He is also a Certified Coach by WBECS, a Certified Trainer by The Ken Blanchard Companies, and an active member of the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan.

Connect with Michael Glazer on LinkedIn

Discover more about People Focus Consulting (Michael’s consulting company)

What we love about John’s story is that as he searched and interviewed for business analyst opportunities, he was confident that despite how the process was going, The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program gave him the confidence he needed to keep applying.

John never wondered whether or not he was qualified for a position, but rather would often find himself in scenarios where he was overqualified because of all that he had learned.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program helped John understand how to simplify processes for stakeholders.
• How John was able to decipher what was and was not business analysis work.
• How John’s experience with various instructors provided him with a well-rounded understanding of how to implement what he was learning into his future work.
• John’s journey of applying for and interviewing for business analyst roles.

Introducing John Sim

Paula Bell: Hello. I am Paula Bell, the Program Manager for Bridging the Gap. And I am here with my special guest and friend John Sim of the Bay area in San Francisco. He is currently a finance business analyst and he is going to talk to us about his career success and journey and how he was a participant in The Blueprint program and how The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program helped him along with that success.

So, first off, thank you, John, for being a part of this interview that we’re going to do on your success journey and being willing to share your success journey with others. How are you doing today?

John Sim: Doing great. Thanks for the invitation. It’s a pleasure to talk to you.

Paula Bell: Thank you for accepting. I am really excited to discover more about your story and about you today.

We should just go ahead and dive right in and we can just start opening it up to hearing about this wonderful success journey you’ve been on.

All right. First thing I want you to think about or tell us about, can you take us back to the spring of 2020 before you joined us for The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program? Where were you at in your career and what were you looking to achieve at that time back in the spring of 2020?

John Sim: It was actually someone, I have a counseling session with another advisor and he has a close association with Bridging the Gap. He actually introduced me to sign up for this program and then I get some special bonus on his counseling site. Then I looked up Laura Brandenburg, and then I read she’s an established BA and she’s also a QA Tester, which is very similar to me.

I used to be a QA Engineer but doing some function analyst work. And I thought, oh, those are the main BA tools that I need to learn because nowadays, even though I’m doing business analysis, I don’t have formal business analyst training. So I thought, oh, that’s an established program and well-known so, I was struggling to say the cost is not cheap. But then I think it will be a worthwhile investment down the road, and I think I can afford it through the installment. Then I take a leap of faith and let’s try. What harm can I do? I gained the skills. That’s what lead me into the program to try to learn about business analysis.

Paula Bell: You said you made the investment. You looked at the cost, you made the investment, you took a leap of faith. You went in there and you’ve gained the skill. How would you say those skills helped you or transformed you into where you are today from back when you started in the spring of 2020?

John Sim: Oh yeah. Those are the skills that I wish I have learned, had proper training so I can do a better job in the BA world. And then when I’m actually into the program doing the exercise, I was finding some, I haven’t worked on real projects. The projects that I did, this past project that I’ve been in my software development book that I apply it to the training program. It actually helps me switch my mind because I was doing like three different roles.

I’m a BA, but I was also thinking in terms of developers, how to fix it and then also thinking about end user, how to do it. I tried to put everything in the workshop, but then I was correct to say, no. When you’re doing BA, you should be narrowly focused as a BA. Don’t cross the boundary to how to design the software, which is not BA work.

I really have to switch my mind to be a BA focus and understanding what the requirement is using the process map, the flow diagram, and then which it’s eye-opening and the user story and which is strict guideline. I need to be open-minded to learn about everything because before that I just have a fixed mindset. Okay. Let’s see what the program can do for me.

I did kind of a few times, I was so frustrated I want to give up, but I kept telling, I think even though the instruction there were some correction comments that I need to fix my workbook. And I was like, why? Yeah. I’m just really frustrated. I wanted to give up.

But then I didn’t say no. I think it beats the purpose. That’s learning. Right? People tell you, you need to improve on this area and that area. Just having an open mind to examine and learn it and then correct it, and then grow yourself better. That’s how pursued it myself. Just accept the feedback that people give you, and then I just worked on the feedback. Be patient and be resilient to understand the requirement and meet the requirement and the deadline. And I’m glad I stuck to it. So I learned a lot of things, even though during the instructors session. I might be asking a lot of questions questioning, “Why can’t I do this way? Why can’t I do it this way?”

But I just want to understand the viewpoint of the instructor. So now I understood it, so, oh, okay. There’s a certain set of standards to follow and you shouldn’t go out of it. My comfort zone of doing things is one way, but then the standard is another way. So I say, oh, I need to get out of my comfort zone and then follow instruction or standards that people have established.

So I say, okay, it’s not John. It’s learning time. So just open my mind, open my heart to accept learning and feedback. So that was a great change of mindset and attitude.

Paula Bell: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Well, let’s go a little bit deeper in that, because you mentioned some aspects of the program and I heard you mentioned use cases. I heard you mentioned process. Let’s take the business process analysis module. What would you say some of your key takeaways were from that particular module?

John Sim: Yeah, it was trying to visualize it so that people can understand. And I thought, oh, I’ve seen people use it this way. Then I try to incorporate and then got a feedback saying no, it’s not a good idea because people will be confused. And then I try another way and another instructor case and different feedback saying, “Hmm. Okay.” And then also read up on more instruction and then see example of how people do it and say, “Oh, okay, let me simplify it and not get too complicated.”

If it’s a document it shows the document icon. If it’s a process, there is a physician. Then if a physician, then it’s different levels of same lane or whatever. Just make sure the process is simplified and not over complicated. Because every time, I think, “Oh, maybe I should get this.” And then it’s like, “No. I don’t know.”

You go through multiple iterations until…and then I think I jump in on almost all the instruction hour to get the feedback of, “Is this better now? Is this not good? I get feedback and to improve on it. And then finally I got the okay. “Oh, okay. Now I’m learning.” It’s actually a thought-provoking process because it was like, “Oh, I want to add this, this, this, this,” but then it’s like the PowerPoint is only that pitch because I can show the whole screen. So I do it.

Small everything, smaller icon, smaller arrows. Then the words inside the diagram, you can’t elaborate. You have to use shorter document flow, physicians like, oh, to explain the things. Let me simplify. But I tend to run on, put too much detail. Does that answer your question?

Paula Bell: It did. That was some great feedback. You visualize. You don’t over-complicate. You make it simple. You are very clear on how the arrows work on how you have to be very concise and using those verbs and the activity shapes and all of that. So, yeah. Those were some great points that you brought out that you learned during the session. So thank you for sharing that and sharing what some of those concepts were. I also liked that you advise that you leveraged all the instructor hours, too.

You got that instructor support and that feedback along the way because you saw people do it a certain way. Then you got some feedback, a different perspective, you incorporated that and you were open to that. That’s great. Great pieces of information and nuggets there for anyone that will be listening to your success story. Can you tell us a little bit of where you are in your career now? How are things progressing for you so far?

John Sim: A skill. I think it’s a good skill to have because everywhere they want the BA skill of gathering requirements and then engage with stakeholders and I have those experiences in a different world, like in the financial ERP world. But in the Salesforce arena, I’m pretty new to it. Even though they might be using agile and a different process, I don’t have actual real-life situation on the Salesforce area, but I think it should be similar with this. They are using agile. They have the same ceremony, right?

Do the spring planning and then you have a stand up meeting and then do a review and retrospective in the spring cycle. I think I can adapt to those, technology pretty easily. And then working with developers, those types of things, I’ve already done it in my financial ERP world where we collaborate with the product manager on the feature discussing document, what needs to be included and then work with the developer. It turned my functional knowledge on the subject and then worked on a test script to test the unit, test that the developer have, and then if it needs rework, then I’ll work with the developer to rework.

Most of the time I’m very familiar with the waterfall method because that’s how I was trained when I was doing all those development work where the agile BA technology is more recent. So I have limited knowledge. But with this that I have, you will be greatly enhance in whatever. I believe I can work on any team that I’m assigned. Whether it’s consulting a big company, a small company, I should be able to handle any kind of challenge.

In one of my career development groups where I was asked to work with a team to customize projects, I took it upon to learn Salesforce on what I know, and then do a lot of Google research on how things are done. Then another time I had an issue, I Google search engine, and then I get the answer and then apply to BA work or Salesforce work to solve my solution. And when I have an issue, I just ask questions around, especially in Salesforce. That’s a huge community to get my answer.

So, I guess a successful career is just to be patient, to be persevering a zillion and keep learning, and then ask questions. Because I am an introvert. I usually like to ask questions privately, like in a smaller group one-on-one. In a larger meeting, I usually listen to people asking question and I say, “Oh, that’s the question I would like to ask,” when someone is already asking on my behalf. In the bigger setting, I tend to listen more. On the smaller setting, one-on-one, then I’m more comfortable sharing and speak up. That’s the area that I’m learning to be more open up to share my ideas of what I think about certain things.

Paula Bell: Okay, perfect. What I want you to share and talk about is I remember when you got the new position you’re in now and it was a journey getting to the position that you’re in now. Can you share a little bit about what happened prior to you getting that position and how you ended up in the position you are currently in? I think that would resonate with a lot of people who might be going through some of the similar scenarios that you went through.

John Sim: Yeah. My situation is I’m not that new person looking for job. I’m more like a mid-career person that have some IT background. So getting the transition to another position, it’s a challenge. It takes longer because I probably have already established some experience and some IT, and some, salary expectations already. Even when I’m new to Salesforce, I tried to apply for the entry-level job and never got any traction.

I don’t know if the employer will look at me and say, “Oh, you have a lot of experience and you want to apply for entry-level position.” I don’t know what to think about. Hire an experienced person to do an entry-level job versus someone who is brand new, also learning Salesforce. I don’t know. It’s harder to crack into the entry-level for my level of experience because I’m competing with new people.

And then the thing that I improved is my LinkedIn profile, which I got help from the talent stack of community group. They helped a lot on my LinkedIn profile, my resume, my mock interview. That helps a lot because once I updated my LinkedIn profile, I got more requests. “Can I interview you for this job Salesforce job, Salesforce consulting and other areas?” I got to talk to more recruiters and hiring managers. That was a start. But then it wasn’t easy too, because when I started talking to recruiters, they have a requirement that they need to hire someone who has Salesforce experience.

I tell them about my transferable skills in Oracle and my business analyst certification and scrum master certification and Salesforce. And then some ask, “How much experience do you have?” When I first started, I’d say less than one. A lot of the recruiters would say, “We have a requirement. We need to get someone that has three or four years of Salesforce experience. That’s the roadblock where I have 10 years of experience in ERP. And then they say, “Oh, you have experience.” And then they just assume I have Salesforce experience. So when they talk to me they say, “Oh, you don’t have Salesforce experience. No, we are not looking at you. I don’t think you will be successful. We want someone to have experience.”

So that’s the roadblock that I faced with a lot of recruiters will strictly just look at the requirement. We need Salesforce expertise, this area, or sometime, specifically, “Oh, we want CPQ.” “I don’t have CPQ, but I can learn because everything I acquire history, learning and through sharing. That’s the journey. The most opportunities I got was through consulting.

Consulting, I went through the interview with the hiring manager and then they say, “Oh, we’re not continuing the next step.” When I asked for feedback, they don’t give feedback. They are afraid of liability. I don’t know. I think it can use to help. What can I improve the next time? Is it my delivery or is it I didn’t give detailed answer or whatever. I’m just guessing what the answer could be.

This year there was a large consulting company where they first advertised it through the Salesforce Terran Alliance Job Fair. I signed up for it and then they invited me and a bunch of people to their three to six week training program on Salesforce, how to prepare an official elevator speech and then how to have a good impression and how they are interviewing people, and then how to do a case study. And then if you complete the Trailhead superset, which are three separate super batches, then you get invited to talk to the management networking. Then after networking, they give you a job posting to apply for it.

I applied for that and then went for a phone interview and two other final interviews with a senior manager and a specialist. Throughout the interview, I learned a lot more about the company. They asked me this question, because on the first position when I applied, there was a consultant and senior consultant. Later when I looked back at my application, I think the first application I actually applied for the senior consultant.

So when I went into the interview, the interviewer was asking all the deep functional knowledge on nonprofit, which I haven’t worked on it. So I stumbled on it. I tried to give him the answer, but he tried to go even deeper. I said, “Oh, that’s I haven’t used it, but we use a third party or whatever.”

The first experience was a learning experience because after the interview, I said, “Thank you for the interview.” And they replied, “Oh yeah, it’s nice talking to you, but we won’t be continuing your journey.” So, I said, “Oh, okay.”

Four months later they had a similar program again. Someone else that I know connected with me, actually, in the company. We had the second row of the same program where you can become a consultant. So I signed up a second time for the program again, and then went to the interview again. This time they used a different video platform for the interview.

I went through the interview and I think I did okay. I think better than the first time because I researched the answer that they asked me the first time, and then more about revise my “Tell me about myself story” and other things that I need to know about the company and the questions that I want to ask.

After the second recruitment, I didn’t get a rejection email. I got a voicemail saying thank you for your pre-hire application. After looking at it, we decided you are not selected for this go-round, but we’ll keep your resume for the next go-round in November. And we’ll call you back for the next round of interviews

So fast forward to round three when they had a similar program. This time they actually said they’re going to contact me in November, again, to talk about the similar position. They called me back and then someone that I know in the company actually referred me for that position. I got an email saying, “We want to talk to you. Let’s set up a time for a phone screening.”

So I went through the phone screening again and they said, “Oh, okay.” It was pretty quick. The phone interview was on a Friday and on Monday I got an email saying the managers said everything went fine. We want to schedule the next final interview with another three consultants. They gave me two dates, Monday and Friday. So I chose two weeks later on the Friday. And then it was all in the same day.

I had to go to three interviews – one for the focus interview and one for the behavior interview, and then the last one was the case study. I went through all three through the video platform. I had a good conversation with the first two. The last one, actually from a case study actually testing my Salesforce knowledge from beginning to end. They asked me about sales cloud. They have this case scenario they are using this system. “What would you recommend?”

So I tell them upfront what is the issue and the problem. And then they have a case, we have the sales cloud. How would you do? And then I’ll tell them what I know, what I recommend. And then they say, “How about service cloud? How do you rock the case? We have a new region, so I tell them you can route it based on the queue or whatever, and then assign someone to accept the queue.” And then they asked me about reporting and then the security structure. In the conclusion, what is your recommendation? I say replace the Legacy system with Salesforce.

When this is over, the following Monday, I got the email saying, “Congratulations, you are being offered the job.”

Paula Bell: Awesome.

John Sim: It was quick. It was quick. They gave me a week to think over. They gave me the offer just before Thanksgiving. You have a week to think over. And then I said, “Oh, okay.” And then they follow up and say, “Oh yeah, we give you an offer, but we have to do audit of you.” I say that sounds scary. You want to do an audit on me on my previous job and current job. And I was like panicking. What can they find on me? But then I said oh, don’t worry about it. I tend to over-worry myself.

Paula Bell: Exactly.

John Sim: Let’s just go through. If they asked me a difficult question, then I’ll figure out how to answer them.

Paula Bell: You got a job on the third try. The first one didn’t go through you did it again. You did your research, you did it again. The second one, that didn’t go through either, but you didn’t give up because they said they were going to contact you in November. You got the offer in November. You’re working in that role as a financial business analyst, you’re doing this work. I have to ask, if you hadn’t invested in The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, where do you think you would be today if you had not invested in it?

John Sim: I think that Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA) certification probably has some weight because I only have one Salesforce certification, but I have BA certification and then the scrum master certification. They even asked me, “How can I verify your ACBA certification?” I showed them the Bridging the Gap link to verify my certification. I think those three certifications probably were taken into consideration because I only have one Salesforce, but I have two of the other ones: the BA and the scrum master.

So I think those put some weight on the decision. I had to wait two months to start. Hopefully, the current background check is okay. They are pretty strict. I have some paperwork and volunteer work and I lump everything together as the same company, but I don’t know whether they would like it or not. And if they don’t like it, then I’ll have to explain, a lot of explaining for them.

Paula Bell: Well, we’re just going to believe everything’s going to be fine. You have the skillset to do it. You’ve demonstrated that. Clearly, they found value in you and you have the ACBA certification.

Really quick last question for you. How have you leveraged what you’ve learned from the ACBA certification? Since you have left the program, how have you leveraged what you’ve learned in that program, in your career up to this.

John Sim: I think the program, the topics that Laura taught it’s useful and it’s actually a reminder course to go through again. And even though I’ve been using it strictly in the actual work environment, I’m always attending other sessions of BA. Then, also, Tony Martin’s BA session, I’m also part of it. If I can learn as much about BA and real-world experience, it’s helpful to keep track and note so the next time when I do it, I can just borrow the experience in my real job. It’s all helpful. Down the line, I might use more and more and more. Even though I get the certification doesn’t mean I know everything. I’m still learning, probably the beginning level of a BA.

Paula Bell: But at least you have the tools and the resources to help you along with that.

Well, thank you for sharing your story with us today, John. I really appreciate it.

Before I wrap up, though, is there anything else that you would like to share before we close out?

John Sim: It’s just for beginners, those mid-career people, just be patient. Don’t give up. Don’t get yourself boxed in a time period to get a job. You can get it sooner or you can get it later as long as you have the resources to keep looking for a job. Just persevere. Be persistent, leverage the community network to let them know that you’re finding a job and what area you need.

And also have faith in God. Trust that God will give you a good path. Who knows. He might give you a favor and He will get you to something better down the line. Although it might take longer, sometimes the longer you wait, the better job you get. Sometimes I was like, should I try everything? Every little page? Should I go there? Should I do this? Could I do this? Don’t spread yourself too thin.

Figure out what area you want to focus on and then stick to it. Sooner or later you will get it. Just don’t give up and don’t be frustrated. I get discouraged and frustrated all the time, but just keep up to faith and something good will come your way.

Paula Bell: Perfect. Thank you for that wonderful words of wisdom. You heard him everyone. Don’t give up. Even if you’re frustrated, push through it, persevere, you can do this.

Thank you once again, John, for joining us today and sharing your story. I truly, truly appreciate it. I’m quite sure your story is going to impact others and inspire others and encourage others as we go forward.

With that, it was an honor speaking with you today. I just want to say once again, thank you. Everyone out there who’s listening, I’m quite sure you got golden nuggets from John today and we will talk to you soon. Have a great one.

>>How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

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>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

What we love about Faraz’s story is that by going through The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, he was able to gain a technical skill that allowed him to find his unique place in the business world. Before the program, even though Faraz had a diverse career background, he desired to acquire the technical skills to make himself an expert in a particular field. 

In this interview, you’ll discover: 

• How Faraz was able to gain confidence and assurance of his work through the lessons learned in the program. 
• The key challenges that Faraz faced when it came to his business analyst skill set, and how the program provided the clarity he needed to move forward. 
• How Faraz uses the technical skills he learned in The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program daily as a Salesforce Consultant. 
• The main factor that allows Faraz to approach any work situation with confidence. 
• Why Faraz recommends The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program over any other training for business analysts. 

Introducing Faraz Khan

Michael White: Hi everybody. I’m Michael White with Bridging the Gap. I’m one of the instructors here with our Blueprint program. Today we are here with Faraz Khan. He was a participant who successfully achieved his ACBA certification. Today he’s going to be sharing with us a little bit about his story, his background, and what he feels that he got from the program. With that said, welcome Faraz. Thank you. 

Faraz Khan: Yeah. Happy to be here, Michael.  

Michael White: Absolutely. All right. So I’m pretty excited to get you to share your story and learn a little bit more about you. So we’re just going to dive right on into our questions for today. First of all, just tell us a little bit about several months back before you started the program, tell us about where you were in your career and what you were hoping to get out of The Blueprint program.  

Faraz Khan: Yeah. Sure. Prior to my current role, I had actually taken a bit of a non-traditional path coming out of college a little over 10 years ago. I decided to go the route of joining startups. Back in 2010, that was sort of not really the thing to do, especially in the midwest, but I took a risk. I said I want to be an entrepreneur. Let me go join a startup. That’s kind of what I thought. 

I ended up spending a lot of time after that startup building my own business in real estate investing and internet lead marketing for quite a number of years and ended up back in some startups for a few years.  

With that sort of, as a background, I kind of wanted to get further and further away from the entrepreneur route and the startups that I was working with. I wanted to go to either a more professional company or a bigger company. I needed to find a role where it allowed me to use my skills, but it’s also a role that I could attain, not coming in to become director of something. I was looking for a role and that’s where I found Bridging the Gap to help me figure out what it’s like to be a business analyst, and how do I get there?  

Michael White: That’s pretty cool. And it’s interesting because the thing about business analysis is it’s one of those professions where you can always pull some type of transferable skill from another industry. 

Like you said, you were an entrepreneur; you did in real estate, but there were still probably some skills that you utilized in those endeavors that you were able to utilize as a business analyst as well.  

When you joined the program, tell us a little bit about some of your experiences with the modules as far as trying to transition from an entrepreneur to a business analyst or something of the like. Tell us about how some of those modules in the course helped you out with that. 

Faraz Khan: When I was looking for something to help kind of prepare me for this kind of role. I wanted something hands-on, and I wanted something that I could touch and feel. I can study and get a business analyst certification, pass a test and get a certification. I can do that. But I needed something to point to that gives me confidence, but also something that I can say, I know how to do this thing, and that thing is important to that job. 

Throughout the course, we had specific modules that are very specific to a particular skill that you need to have. For example, process diagramming. How do you map out a business process from start to finish? Oh, and by the way, how do you use the software to actually draw it out? 

Concept okay, but the program actually, the homework assignments actually had me go through creating my own process diagram. Then sitting in on instructor-led sessions, we actually analyze other people’s processes. I never received feedback on my specific diagram. By learning the concept, doing the work myself, and then analyzing other people’s diagrams, I got a real holistic view of that particular skill and now act, that’s actually my favorite skill that I use in my job today…having a conversation and then mapping it out in a Lucid Chart is my favorite thing to do, and it’s so valuable. 

The course really helped me get through…conceptually that’s easy, but the course really helped me get through some of those blockers of how detailed does it need to be? I thought it has to be so technical, but there’s a conceptual level, which is more in line with my business analyst skills and helped me kind of get unstuck and get over those little questions so that I can actually just start using the tool in my job today.  

That’s probably the biggest thing that I benefited from the course, the hands-on exercises with feedback, and then analyzing other people’s work as well.  

Michael White: Excellent. It sounds like in terms of a key takeaway from the course, what would you say that was for you? What was one of the major takeaways in terms of maybe what you learned from the program or maybe a takeaway in terms of what you learned from the program? 

Faraz Khan: I would say the main takeaway, and this was a blocker for me sometimes is how there are different levels to business analysis. This process diagram example, you could have a technical diagram that has 20 different, 40 or 50 different steps in the process and it’s very mapped out to the exact thing that happens in the process or the software code. 

That’s very difficult to do when you’re starting out, but it’s also difficult for your stakeholder and colleagues to use. It’s just overwhelming. Through the program, I started to understand that there are different levels of analysis. You could start with a conceptual level with five or 10 steps just to have conversations. When and how to go through those different levels, through the exercises, that has been really helpful for me. I would say that’s the biggest key takeaway I got out of the program. 

Michael White: That’s absolutely powerful. You always want to consider who your audience is when you’re creating these deliverables. You don’t want to have a deliverable that’s overly technical if you’re speaking to the business. Right. You don’t want to have something that’s too general, so that people from the technical team don’t know what to build. You really need to know your audience, their appropriate level of detail, and how we can bridge the gap when we’re communicating that. Thank you for that.  

Now tell us a little bit about where you are in your career now and how the program has helped you progress to your current state. 

Faraz Khan: I’m currently a Salesforce Consultant. I very much play the business analyst role on our project teams. 

Sometimes I’m leading the client through a project and sometimes I’m in support of a more senior-level consultant on a project. kind of getting here, before I was like, what role do I want? I zeroed in on this business analyst role. I heard a podcast, one of the Bridging the Gap podcasts where Laura interviewed Toni Martin and she said something  that really kind of clicked for me. That she really enjoyed the business analyst role and the skills, but she wanted something that was more niche and focus so she could build a career around. She found the Salesforce path. I had heard of Salesforce and I decided to look into that path further.

Once I opened up that door, I said, hey, I can use, you know, I was a product manager and an entrepreneur in the past. I love the kind of work I do. I have these business analyst skills through this program, but also I can have a niche and a software called Salesforce where I don’t have to be a developer to actually build something. 

And I said, well, this is it. This is what I want to do. And I want to be a consultant for other reasons. Low and behold full circle after going through the program, I ended up getting this Salesforce consulting position. Earlier this year I was able to speak at the Salesforce Business Analyst Summit hosted by Toni Martin. Laura was one of the other speakers at the conference as well. And here I am talking to you. I feel like, very much, I was on the other side. And now I’m speaking with my instructors, and you were one of my instructors as well. I feel really privileged to go through the program, create a vision, and now that I’m in this role, being able to live that vision on the other side. It’s hard to picture when you’re on the other side, but kind of cross that bridge.  

Michael White: Yeah, there we go. There we go. It’s amazing how it all came together for you. You were involved with Bridging the Gap and then you get connected with Salesforce with Toni.  

Toni was one of our instructors as well. I instructed you. I was also a speaker at the summit. Now you were a speaker at the summit. So it’s like this wonderful support system in this wonderful ecosystem within the business analysis space. I think that’s a very good testament of how omnipresent Bridging the Gap as well. I think that’s a wonderful story for sure.  

Now, in terms of the outcomes of this, what does this mean for you? How would you say this has impacted you personally in terms of maybe your confidence or maybe just how you view your role or what you’re doing at Salesforce?  

FARAZ KHAN: Before this course, it was like, I’m confident I’m smart, but I didn’t know my place in the job world. I’m not an engineer. I’m not a doctor. I don’t have a technical skill. I was just a business guy.  

Although I’m not a programmer, I very much have systems thinking and I also have the personal side of it where I can speak to the business and understand the business as well. 

What the course gave me is actually something I could consider a technical skill, which is called business analysis. Now I know that what I’m bringing to the table on a project team. That makes me feel very confident. I’ve worked in startups too, so I don’t have to talk over people to get my way. 

I don’t have to hide behind my lack of self-confidence and let my ego take over. I’m actually confident in my skills and I feel like my ego has taken a step back. I feel more confident in my ability to have a long-term successful career no matter what job I’m in, because I know these base-level skills. I know I’m a business analyst. I know I can produce these kinds of assets and I know how to accomplish very specific things on these kinds of projects. That’s what it’s really kind of given to me, this course, and that’s what long-term business analysis; great. Salesforce, great. Consulting, great. I have a career path whereas before it was a very windy, windy path.  

Michael White: That’s awesome. That’s great. I think that’s what we are here to do. We’re here to help give you a little bit of direction and clarity around what you want to do and understanding what the role is and how you can contribute to that role. 

You definitely are a good fit for use case. I’m very happy to hear that.  

I wish we were on the summit together. That would’ve been cool if we were speaking in the same line-up. You and Laura got to speak together, but if all of us were there together I think that would have been pretty cool.  

Faraz Khan: Laura was in a separate talk. We were all in our own talks. That would’ve been really cool to be on a panel.  

Michael White: For sure.  

Well, in terms of closing, do you have any thoughts or recommendations for anyone who might be interested in going down a similar path, who might be interested in joining The Blueprint, or who might be interested in transitioning from an entrepreneur in sales and real estate to the business analyst career?  

Faraz Khan: I’ve had this conversation with quite a few people. I’ve recommended this course very specifically, because I couldn’t find anything else that walks you through, start to finish, actual skills, and job training. These are actual things you’ll do in an actual job, plus you get a credential, which you can showcase it.  

In terms of getting training and being confident in doing the skills to get a new job or to be better at your current job, I absolutely got that out of this course. That’s what I would recommend.  

If you’re looking for actual training on best practices, not just hacking away at it in your day job and you don’t know if you’re doing it right or wrong, this is a good course for that.  

And then business analysis, everything is touching technology now. Everything. Every process is being affected or supported by software. Whether you’re a business user or a business analyst product manager type person, even if you’re on the technical side or on the business side, being able to articulate what you want or what the customer wants or what the business wants through these tools that the course gives you will help you as a business person or someone more on the technical side as well. 

I think you need this skill to move forward. How technology is impacting every, every sort of business.  

Michael White: Thank you so much, Faraz. I’m sure your story is going to inspire a lot of people and it was such an honor speaking with you today. And again, I want to thank you so much for your time. On behalf of myself and the entire Bridging the Gap team. 

To everyone out there, thanks for watching. We will catch you on the next round. Have a good one. 

>>How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes.

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

Natalie has helped hundreds of people get unreasonable job offers that they originally didn’t believe they could get.  

In this short discussion, you’ll discover how to: 

• Give yourself proper credit for the work that you have done. 
• Share about your experience leading with the results rather than the actions. 
• Maintain mental and emotional resilience when interviewing doesn’t go as planned. 

Introducing Natalie Fisher 

Laura Brandenburg: Hello everyone. I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap here today with Natalie who’s here to talk about why you are getting interviews, but not an offer, for a business analyst job. This is a challenge that I know a lot of you face.  

Natalie is a career mindset coach that’s helped hundreds of people get unreasonable offers that they didn’t originally believe that they could get. She works on mindset, which those of you who have followed me for a while know I’m a big geek when it comes to mindset and success strategy. She helps you with both and is obsessed with figuring out the specific mindset tools and blocks that will get in the way of really smart people succeeding in getting into the position they want with a salary they want. 

Great to have you here, Natalie. Thanks for being here.  

Natalie Fisher: Thank you for having me.  

Laura Brandenburg: Before we get started, you have this guide, which you shared with me called, “Eight reasons that you get interviews, but no offers”. I’ve downloaded it and read through it. I think it is absolutely brilliant. Anyone who wants to download it can get it in the notes below. We’re not going to cover all eight reasons today because this is a bit of a short interview, but I do want to just dig deeper into a few of the reasons that really stood out to me and I think are relevant to our community.  

Employers Can Sense an Energetic Doubt in Your Abilities and Decide Not to Make a Job Offer 

The first one was number two, and this is where you said, “They sense an energetic doubt in your abilities.” This one certainly, I think, affects business analysts because as analytical thinkers, we often doubt ourselves in the first place. And then we can get thrown off because the terminology is a little different than we’ve seen before and we want to make sure we’re answering the question perfectly. That can make us come off as less than confident.  

My question for you is how do you advise people to overcome this one?  

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, for sure. There are many different tools that I use. I think the one here that’s most applicable for maybe a new business analyst or somebody who is unsure of their own abilities right now is to, first of all, take stock of what you have done and make that forefront of your mind. Even if it seems like it’s small things, there’s always a big list of things that you have already done that you’re probably not giving yourself enough credit for. Then the, “I can figure things out” thing because you have figured out a whole bunch of things that you didn’t know how to do in the beginning. 

You’ve been doing that since you were born. Walking, talking. It’s just stuff you’ve figured out along the way. All of a sudden we grew up and got really doubtful that we would be able to figure things out and that’s where we get tripped up. I would offer that thought. It’s really helped a lot of my clients to just repeat that. “I know I can figure things out.” And then pointing to all that evidence of the times when you have figured things out when you started and you had no idea of how that was going to go.  

Laura Brandenburg: Just like as a business analyst, your job is to figure things out, right?  

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, exactly. 

Laura Brandenburg: You probably have done this before. If it’s a good role for you, you probably have a lot of evidence in your favor.  

Natalie Fisher: Yeah. There’s so much evidence anyway. It’s so easy for me to go into a conversation with the clients and start to dig out all the things that they’ve done. But the problem is nobody is going to sit there and question you on the details of the things you’ve done. So you have to do that yourself, for yourself so that you can be like, okay, I understand. I do bring more to the table than I thought, and I have figured out more things than I thought.  

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. That prep work seems really key.  

Natalie Fisher: Yeah.  

You Might Not Get an Offer Because the Information You Provide is Not Concrete or Specific Enough 

Laura Brandenburg: The next one I wanted to ask you about is when people say they didn’t get specific enough or concrete enough information. Can you just share a little bit more about that? And how much do you advise people to share? Because you also don’t want to go so deep into the details that you’re lost in the weeds.  

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, for sure. That’s a great question too. It’s kind of like I was thinking about this and how I could use an analogy to kind of illustrate how this is. 

It’s like if you’re serving a meal, you don’t want the meal to be overwhelmed with so many spices and so many things that you can’t taste any of it. But you also don’t want it to be so bland that it just tastes like nothing. So what I think is people normally will go on the bland, vague side and they’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I can do that,” or they won’t give specific examples.  

What we want, I think, is like the main part of the meal is your results. What are the results that you attained or achieved from the story that you’re telling? Was it that you got people to collaborate on something and that meant that the business was now able to move forward with a project that got done on time? Why did that matter? So the main part of the meal is the result.  

The side dishes are kind of like the situation explaining the context of the situation, how you got into it, what your task was, and what the assignment was. Just giving some context. Then talking a little bit about the actions that you took and how you did them. But your main part of the meal is the one that they care about the most, the end result, what you’re talking about actually achieved. That’s kind of how I describe it. Just think it’s one extreme, you’re really vague and you’re like, yeah, I did it. I can do it. No problem. The other you’re like telling them all these things and they’re just kind of, their eyes are glazing over with, okay, when are you going to be done talking? You want to kind of be in the middle, focusing on don’t forget the results. I find a lot of people forget the results. I’ll be having a conversation and they’ll be like, “Well, I did this, this, this, and this.” And I will say, as the coach, “Okay, but why did that matter? What were the results from that?” And then they will give me the best answer they’ve given. 

Laura Brandenburg: But you have to dig for it? 

Natalie Fisher: Exactly.  

Laura Brandenburg: We didn’t quite prep for this, but I’m interested at what level you coach people to give results. Because as we were talking about before, there’s the project results, but then there’s also the individual results, what they contributed to the project. And I think BAS can kind of get stuck in the middle of that. What results do you advise people to focus on in the interview? 

And It May Not Be About You At All! 

Natalie Fisher: The question I ask to kind of weed that out and clarify that for people is, “What would have happened if you were not there? What do you think would have happened if you were not part of that project at all?” It kind of becomes clear as to what unique, specific contribution that they had. And we can kind of put together what was it in their unique thought processes that contributed to that final result. That’s kind of a good weeding question to make it clear because they have a pretty good idea at that point. If you remove that person from the situation, the project would have turned out differently.  

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. As a business analyst, if you weren’t there to write the dozen use cases for how the software was going to work, the business and the software people would have been talking back and forth and trying to shortcut this process and probably built the wrong thing. 

Natalie Fisher: Exactly. 

Laura Brandenburg: Instead of a really clear process. That example, too, in terms of your don’t go into the deep, like you wouldn’t go to the details of, “Well, first I did this use case and then I did this use case, and then I did this,” but you might say, “I created a dozen use cases and this is how I worked with the team,” to kind of give a flavor of the project without like the step by step.  

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, totally. And I like to say, when I was interviewing myself, I would always kind of give them that overall thing. And then I would say, “If you want to see more examples, if you want to see more results, I’m happy to share them.” Most of the time they didn’t need to, but it made me feel better to just give that option. 

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. All right. There are so many, again, good reasons in the guides and there’s a lot of practical guidance, too. But the last one I want to talk about in the time that we have today is #8. This was, “It has nothing to do with you.” I think job seekers want to make every interview about them, and it’s not always the case.  

Often, I think when people are interviewing business analysts, it’s like the hiring manager sometimes doesn’t have a clear view even of the role that they’re hiring for. And so they might put a list of qualifications down, but then as they start to interview people, you might be qualified on paper, but they’re like, oh my goodness, this is not what I actually need. I didn’t get the requirements right. Which is a total, “It’s not about you” situation. How would you help advise people to maintain their mental and emotional resilience in the face of that kind of an interview process where that might be happening?  

Natalie Fisher: Totally. In that kind of an interview process, or in the kind of a process where you went in and you just kind of knew it wasn’t the right fit and you didn’t really like it either. There are going to be situations like that where it just wasn’t going to work out no matter what you did. In those situations, your first step is to identify that. But I think deeper is just being confident with how you showed up and focusing on evaluating yourself from your own perspective. Not making the result mean something about you if you got rejected for something.  

I had a client, he got rejected for something that he told me he didn’t even want, but he was still disappointed about it. And it’s like, you get to make the decision. I don’t want to work for a company who doesn’t know what they want yet. I don’t want to work for a company who isn’t going to be flexible with time off or whatever it is that you discovered in the interview that maybe you didn’t feel right about. 

I would say, like in my program, I talk about evaluating based on things you can control. There’s a list of things you can control. You can feel really good about. You can walk out of that interview saying, “You know what? I did everything I could, I’m happy with how I showed up.” If it’s not a match, it’s not a match. Sometimes you know it’s not. Identifying that you have a decision to make as well. It’s not just them. It’s equal. I think we often get that confused. We think they’re the ones with the power and stuff, but they need you too. 

Laura Brandenburg: Yes. I mean, you have an immense amount of power as a business analyst. If people need the skillset, they just need to understand what you can do and the value you can create for them. That’s awesome. 

Natalie, do you want to share a little bit more about this download I’ve been talking about and where people can find? I’ll definitely leave a link below. 

Natalie Fisher: Yeah, absolutely. So the link for it is below and we go into the eight specific reasons how to fix them all. And yeah, just kind of going into the mindset, because that was the number one question that I kept getting is, “I’m going on all these interviews, but what am I doing wrong?” 

Like we talked about, sometimes it really doesn’t have anything to do with you, but most of the time there are some things that you can do to definitely increase your chances and guarantee that job offer coming through.  

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. And if you want to learn more about the business analyst role, specifically, at Bridging the Gap, we also have a free workshop called the Quick Start to Success, and I will leave that link below as well. 

Thank you so much, Natalie, for being here today and thank you for being here today.  

Natalie Fisher: Awesome. Thank you for having me. It was great. 

Get Hired! With These 2 Free Resources 

Download Natalie’s 8 Reasons You Get Interviews But No Offer 

In her free guide, 8 Reasons You Get Interviews, But No Offers, she shares the most common hindrances that may be keeping you from attaining your dream job that have nothing to do with your experience or skill set. 

Join our Free Workshop:

Quick Start to Success as a Business Analyst 

Discover the opportunities you have as a business analyst – straight from Laura Brandenburg. 

What we love about Emma’s story is how she used The Business Analyst Blueprint® to hit the ground running in her new career as a CSI Analyst.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How Emma used the tools and workbooks she learned in The Business Analyst Blueprint® to hit the ground running in her new role from day one.
• How Emma gained clarity on the role of a business analyst even though her title isn’t a BA.
• The specific skillsets Emma has found to be the most helpful in her day-to-day role.
• The difference between simply attending business analyst training and gaining tangible experience and a wealth of knowledge through The Business Analyst Blueprint®.

Laura Brandenburg: Hello. My name is Laura Brandenburg here with Bridging the Gap and here today with Emma Lander, who is from Bournemouth, in the UK. I hope I got that right. And she is a continuous service improvement automation analyst. Which is super awesome in the financial services industry. Emma, it’s so great to have you here. Thank you for joining us today.

Emma Lander: Thank you for having me.

Laura Brandenburg: Emma, you were part of the spring 2021 session of The Business Analyst Blueprint®. That kicked off just earlier this year in January 2021. Can you just share a little bit more about where you were in your career at that time and what you were looking for out of your investment in the program?

Emma Lander: Yeah, sure. At that time I was in a different role in a different company. I had been hired to do a specific role within it. But actually, when I got there, it sort of became clear that that role was changing quite a lot. For a while, I didn’t really know what I was doing. I spoke to a few people about it and then one of my friends said it kind of sounds like you’re doing business analysis. And I thought, okay. I’ve heard of business analysis, but I didn’t really know anything about it, what would it entail, or anything like that.

I just hopped online to do a bit of research around BAs and what they do and I thought, oh yeah, there’s definitely some; I was kind of doing a little bit of project management, a little bit of BA work. I found I was really enjoying it. I kind of started exploring a bit more online and came across, I want to say it was a Bridging the Gap blog post, and I think it was “100 Reasons to be a BA” or “50 Reasons.” I’m pretty sure it’s 100 Reasons.

Laura Brandenburg: I think we have one on 42 Reasons to Start a Business Analyst Career. So that might be the one you’re thinking of.

Emma Lander: Yep, that one. I just remember reading through it and kind of checking each thing off, like, yes, this sounds right. This sounds like exactly what I’m looking for. Until that point, I’ve kind of just been exploring different career paths and not really managing to settle into something.

From there I decided to take the BA Essentials Master Class, just the smaller course just to see. I kind of just wanted to test the water and see if this is actually right. And this was much less of an investment to put down. It just seemed like a good thing to do. I sat through that and actually really enjoyed that and thought, I think that was kind of the point where I thought, yes, I think I’m settled on this and I want to explore the BA world a bit more.

It was about the time I made the decision to invest in the proper qualification was about the time I also changed jobs and went into this new CSI role, which is the one that I’m in now.

Laura Brandenburg: That was a big time then. You were changing jobs, starting a big program. What was going through your mind?

Emma Lander: It was a little bit daunting to start with. I think it was the end of February that I changed roles, which I think is about when we kicked off was January or February.

Laura Brandenburg: Probably early February, somewhere in there. We change it a little bit each year.

Emma Lander: It was kind of full on, but actually going through the course, I think it really helped me to kind of hit the ground running and maybe be a bit more effective in this role than I otherwise would have been because I felt like I was almost having a head start because I had these workbooks that I was handing in and I was able to use the projects that you’re doing at work. It was sort of like someone was holding my hand through the projects a bit. It was nice.

Laura Brandenburg: Do you feel like getting the new job prompted you to join the program? How did that work for you? Or was it a detractor, like, oh; we hear a lot of people say maybe I should wait until I’m in the new job or I’ve had a few months in the job. I’m kind of interested in how that decision played out for you.

Emma Lander: It was more I made the decision…I knew in my head that I wanted to do the course and then this job kind of came up and it was, this feels like it’s come up at the right time. And so I thought, well, I could delay one or the other. But, actually, it almost felt like the universe was saying this is the right path because the course came up, that came up and it just felt like the right thing to do them both at the same time.

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like the timing of the modules lined up for you as well.

Emma Lander: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Are there any modules that stand out, like your business process or your use case, that you could share an example of what you did?

Emma Lander: The business process, the process flow one, which was the first one we did, that was great because I had some minor experience in process mapping. It was a comfortable introduction into it. That was something I could bring into the new role straight away. I was learning BPMN, too, on the side, in the new role, and I was able to use that in the course as well.

That was really good. But, actually, I think that the workbook I learned the most in was probably the data modeling one because that was so completely new to me. I just didn’t know anything about that sort of area. That was a real insight into the kind of stuff that I would be able to offer later down the line.

Laura Brandenburg: What kind of example did you pick for the data modeling?

Emma Lander: That’s a great question. I was doing a project, it’s actually a project that I’m still working on at the moment where we are looking to move a process. There’s a process we’ve got in one department that’s just very manual and they use Excel spreadsheets and we’re looking to bring all of that into a tool that we use.

I’m having to do data dictionaries and stuff like that in order to get the requirements in place. I think it was that project that I used. I’m still working on it at the moment. Trying to do that project without having that knowledge, I think, would have been much harder for me to elicit the requirements as effectively.

Laura Brandenburg: I think that’s a great point. I used to be very set in my tools of loving the use case. You could use case those spreadsheets to death and figure it out, but then the data modeling just cuts through it in a different angle or a different perspective that you still need, probably, what the software’s going to do and those functional requirements and maybe the process maps as well but looking at it from the data perspective just gives you a whole different view.

It is such a powerful view and it can be so new to people as well. It’s either the one that people are like, “I’ve got this, cause I have a technical background and I’ve been doing database development,” or like, “Oh, this is new,” and it’s really eye-opening. I’m glad you had that experience.

You’ve had some big changes happening in your company and what the role is going to evolve into. Can you share a little bit more about that as well?

Emma Lander: I joined in February in the CSI space. What we’re looking at doing now in the company is to build out a process analysis function so we have a PMO world, if you like, that delivers the big projects, and they have a BA team. I work in the IT Department. We have lots of projects that come through, whether that’s from the business or IT projects themselves that don’t go through that PMO world.

We’re building out a process analysis function in the IT department and that is, essentially, using a lot of the tools and everything that we do in business analysis in order to gather the requirements and make sure we’re passing those onto the design teams. I’ve been asked to support in that space and that’s through the knowledge that I gained from doing that qualification is the reason I was asked to help out there, which is awesome.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. And so they saw what you were doing in the program and then wanted…what has your role been in that transition and the formation of that role?

Emma Lander: In terms of the CSI team, we will be delivering the process analysis side as well. I’m supporting my manager looking at what kind of documentation we’re going to need to produce, advising what inputs we’re going to need and where they need to come from, and then saying what kind of outputs we’ll be able to offer and who we will give those. Setting it up and getting the documents, templates together, and that kind of stuff.

Laura Brandenburg: Gotcha. That’s awesome. You mentioned it was because of your participation in the program. Do you have a sense? There are a few different parts of the program. There’s the learning material of learning how to do those things. There’s the application in the real world like you’ve talked about, so you’re gaining that experience and you’re showing that to your employer. And then of course, there’s the certification, the ACBA certification at the end. It could be all three, but what was the piece that your employer was drawn to, or pieces?

Emma Lander: I think it was just having the experience and the knowledge of the BA space and the tools and stuff that we were going to need to use. I guess being able to say that you’ve got a qualification in that area is always great, but I guess it’s not all just about the qualification itself. It’s about the experience that you get from doing it, and then the knowledge you can bring into that area. I think it’s kind of a mix.

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like you’ve been continuing to apply what you’ve learned and taking on more projects like this as well.

Emma Lander: Definitely. I think at the moment I’m working across six or seven different projects. That’s more the projects that you can work through at different times.

Laura Brandenburg: Nice. So lots going on.

Emma Lander: Yeah, definitely.

Laura Brandenburg: For people who might be in this place that you were at the beginning of the year exploring multiple roles and wondering if this is a good fit, but then here you are 11 months later and you’re in the role and you’re expanding the role, what would you recommend to somebody looking to follow in a similar path as what you’re on?

Emma Lander: When I started doing my research, I did a lot of reading blog posts around the BA space and finding people on LinkedIn who were already in that world, and then following them and looking at the content that they shared. Finding podcasts as well to just start hearing from people who are in that space because there’s actually a surprising amount of stuff about business analysis, and there are lots of BA champions out there that are sharing a lot of good stuff.

That would be my first bit of advice. And then secondly, doing the BA Essentials Master Class that I did before doing the main qualification, that was brilliant in terms of me just being able to dabble in it a little bit just to get an idea of whether that was really the route I wanted to go down, did I really want to invest in the bigger qualification phase in terms of time and money because it’s, it’s a long course. It was so worth doing that first little one. In fact, I’m not sure I would have made the investment without being able to do that smaller course.

Laura Brandenburg: We see a lot of people go from one to the other. It makes a lot of sense.

Emma Lander: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: It gives you a really good sort of grinding of in the BA world. And if you do that course and you’re really not sure, then it’s good to have already done that and invested that little bit of time in it.

One of my favorite reviews of my book on Amazon is, “I got two chapters into this book and I realized a business analyst career is not for me.” And I was like, how awesome that you got that from buying a $25 book instead of spending years in a master’s program, which I’ve seen people do as well.

Emma Lander: Yeah. That’s it.

Laura Brandenburg: Put your energy out for the path that serves you. This is something you mentioned when you booked this interview with me, one of the results you’ve experienced is feeling really confident that this is the path versus that you need to go down multiple different paths. And even that aspiration to move into the champion role and be the one who is creating processes and leadership for others. Do you want to talk a little bit more about what you see as your future within business analysis?

Emma Lander: When I started the course, and you speak about the aspiring BA and then going through to the challenge of MBA work. I really just felt like I just would like to become an official BA. That’s sort of what my goal is. I just want to get to that point. I don’t have a BA title, but I feel like I’m certainly doing a lot of BA work.

I feel like I’m in that official BA realm and I’m definitely excited to take it further. How far I want to go? I’m not sure, but my goal at the moment is I would love to just be a senior BA in the team doing BA work and being comfortable and confident with the role and then sharing that with others who are looking to get into the space; kind of offering that when someone’s excited about it.

I’ve got a couple of teammates that I work with now that I didn’t really have that in the previous role. Having other BAs to talk to or process analyst, or whatever it is that we want to call them, is really good because you get to bounce ideas off people and stuff, and it’s nice having that team vibe. Being a senior BA and in a supportive role, I think, is what I’d really like to do next.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s always awesome when you achieve one goal that it opens up your vision for what’s next. I definitely would like the title. We say this a lot, but the title is irrelevant. It’s being in the role and it sounds you are an official BA well on your way to proven BA when you’re handling multiple projects, creating a role, and providing leadership in that role. You’re well on your way.

Last question. Thank you so much for your time. If you hadn’t invested in The Business Analyst Blueprint® and achieved your ACBA, where do you think you might be today?

Emma Lander: I don’t know. Maybe I would still be, thinking back to that previous role that I was in before I changed into this role and did that course, possibly, I’d still be wondering what on earth my role was and just trying to work it out by myself. I don’t know.

I’m so glad I had that conversation with that person who said, “It sounds like you’re doing business analysis,” because the only thing I knew I was doing was project management, and it was a route that I’ve explored and thought I really don’t want to do project management. When she spoke about the BA and I thought there are parts of this role I enjoy, but they don’t feel like project management roles, and suddenly discovered it was the BA side, that kind of led into that, I guess.

Where would I be? Not sure, but I’m glad I did make that investment.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, and that the universe lined things up for you. I love that.

Emma Lander: Yeah, definitely.

Laura Brandenburg: Anything else you’d like to share before we close things off today?

Emma Lander: I don’t think so. Just to say, thank you for the course. I had an amazing time. All of the teachers are incredible. Everyone’s really helpful and it’s just a really nice course to do. You get to talk to your other participants and the teachers are on hand all the time, easy to contact. What you get out of it is just fantastic.

If there are people watching who are wondering whether to do it, I would just say absolutely go for it.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you for that. I appreciate it. And thank you so much, Emma, for your time. I really appreciate you sharing your story and congratulations. It’s just a huge transformation in less than a year. It’s been an honor to learn a little bit more about that as well. Thank you.

Emma Lander: Thanks very much.

>>How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of Formal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes. You’ll create work samples vetted by experienced instructors and have the opportunity to become a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

What we love about Beverly’s story is she observed the work environment around her, recorded in detail the work she had been doing, and used those findings to build the case for her first promotion with her skills from Software Tester to Business Process Analyst.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• The value of investing in yourself and your career.
• How to examine your transferable skills and use them to position yourself for your next career move.
• The importance of viewing feedback objectively with no resistance to change and how to use it for growth.
• How Beverly prepared herself to become a Bridging the Gap instructor by mentoring others in her organization.

Laura Brandenburg: Hi. I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap here today with Beverly Sudbury from Prince Edward Island, one of our most recent ACBA Recipients. I’m so excited to have you here, Beverly, to talk about your experience of becoming a business analyst.

Beverly Sudbury: Thank you Laura. I’m excited to be here.

Laura Brandenburg: If you could just take us back to where you were in your career development before you started with us in the The Business Analyst Blueprint®.

Beverly Sudbury: I was really one of those exploratory, “not sure I want to be a BA but kind of interested with it.” It started out that I took a couple of live webinars with you and I got to know the products and got a good understanding of what the offerings were from yourself and the Bridging the Gap instruction, and I thought, you know what, I might as well invest in myself because I’m curious about this.

I started saying, “I need to do this.” It took a little while, but I did finally get up the nerve to say, “Yeah, I really do want to do this. I really need this course.” It was just a matter of keying in some core concepts so that I understood what a BA was more and what a BA offered in their position so that I could help the company for which I was working.

Laura Brandenburg: You were doing some business analysis, but I feel like didn’t have the full recognition of being a BA.

Beverly Sudbury: Correct. I was slated in as, actually, a test analyst or a systems tester, but I was actually filling in kind of an understudy with the senior BA and he and another person said, you know what, “You do really good at this,” and that’s what keyed it on to the first “What is out there for BA work?”

That’s what keyed me in to the first webinars that I did with you was these people saying, “You really do well at this. You really should look at this.”

Laura Brandenburg: And then you went from that and took the plunge to invest in the business analyst Blueprint program. That’s a pretty big step.

Beverly Sudbury: It was a big step. It was scary because I wasn’t quite sure what the material was because I hadn’t done a full breadth of BA work for specific business analyst skills. Mostly what I did was systems analyst job as a BA, like systems analysis and system design which was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it, but I wasn’t quite sure what the whole program was. It was a little scary, but I said you’re not going to change and you’re not going to evolve yourself if you don’t take a little bit of that fear and push it aside and charge forward.

Laura Brandenburg: And true. You’ve got to take some action, otherwise you stay in a stuck phase.

Beverly Sudbury: Exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: What encouraged you to choose this program, specifically?

Beverly Sudbury: To choose this one specifically? I hate to say it, I talked to some people and they said, “Oh, Laura Brandenburg is giving a course. You need to go take a course with her. She is really good.” And it was your reputation of being such a good BA and so involved with IIBA and things like that. The speeches you have given before that really showed the people’s respect for you, and I said if my colleagues and my peers are actually saying they respect this woman this much, I need to follow up and get instruction from this woman, and that’s what I did.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, that’s awesome. Thank you for sharing that.

Beverly Sudbury: You’re welcome.

Laura Brandenburg: Let’s talk a little bit about your experience in The Business Analyst Blueprint® program. Is there any module that stands out – business process, use cases, data modeling, the BA Essentials course? Anyone that you would most like to talk about your experience with?

Beverly Sudbury: There are two that really hit on. The first one was the process modeling course, the very first one. It was the very first one I had done instruction on. It was the very first one I had done any type of work that was actually not graded but evaluated. I have to say it was the scariest thing I had ever done. I was not impressed with the feedback when I first got it because I thought I’ve been doing BA work, and everyone’s saying I’m such a great person, I really should go after this, and I got a lot of feedback.

It wasn’t that it was negative feedback, it was just a lot of feedback. I took it badly at first. I had to say, you know what, wait a minute. You took this course for a reason and you really need to push forward. I went and actually read the evaluation and then I’m like going, “This is not as bad as I thought it was.” It was that one that, that first initial one, to get over that fear of being not criticized, but given constructive feedback, and that difference of mindset to be accepting of that constructive feedback. That was a big step for me.

The other one was actually the data modeling module because I just loved it. I come from a technical background and the data modeling was just right in my will house of specialty and technical skills and I just loved doing it and I was really excited about it. That was the first thing because at that time, I did work a lot in the technical side. Those were the first concepts I implemented in my actual job.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, I want to come back to that, but let’s talk about this feedback a bit. It gets a lot of people.

Beverly Sudbury: It does.

Laura Brandenburg: In a way it’s easier to sit behind an exam and know that there’s a computer vs. charting your actual work into an instructor. I just want to acknowledge you for having that reaction, human reaction, but then also giving yourself space to work through it and come back to it. How do you feel that ability to embrace feedback has carried with you as you’ve grown as a BA?

Beverly Sudbury: It’s actually helped me a lot. It’s something that was a first big feedback that I got on a career component, aside from, of course, your university courses and things like that. But, again, it was very different because this is something I wanted to achieve and something I wanted to do well in, and something that I thought would be a really good move forward for me.

It was one of those things that I had to sit down and say this is here to improve you. That mindset of “This is here to improve you” has followed me along. I’d have to say that the instructors in the course were the ones that really pushed me to say this is not bad feedback, this is not horrible. This is here to help you improve your career and help improve yourself. That encouragement and that support is what really helped me follow through with going and keeping that mindset.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, that’s so important. Tell us a little bit about, you said you were able to apply data modeling. Obviously, you did the work in the course, but then you were able to use the techniques again in your work.

Beverly Sudbury: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Can you share a little bit more about that?

Beverly Sudbury: It was one of the things. Like I said, I was doing a lot of systems analysis and technical analysis and we did do a data dictionary, but it was a very lean version of a data dictionary. I was able to expand that out and make it more robust and more informative not only to stakeholders, but also to our technical team that was actually developed.

We made enhancements on the system. There was less pressure on the testing team because they were finding less defects and there was more confidence with the stakeholders that we were producing a quality product.

In addition, I introduced the glossary component of the data modeling, which was not existing before. It helped for the stakeholders to understand what the screened items were. What were the terms that were actually being used? We found out that in three different places, the term, “campaign” was used in different ways because people had different ways of defining what a “campaign” was. We were able to get some more clarity on that and, again, increase the stakeholder’s confidence in what was being produced for them.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s huge. I think people either love data modeling, or they cringe about data modeling. It’s really about getting people to use the same language; use the same words to talk about the same things. I can imagine if there were three different definitions of “campaign,” your requirements always maybe seem clear, but everybody had a different understanding.

Beverly Sudbury: Correct.

Laura Brandenburg: It was affecting your test team, too, it sounds like.

Beverly Sudbury: It was affecting the test team, the quality of the work because, again, if you implemented something with definition one of campaign, it may not fulfill the needs of definition two of campaign. And so people were having to do manual workarounds, which meant the system was not of a quality where people were actually efficient.

Laura Brandenburg: Tell us a little bit about where you are today?

Beverly Sudbury: Where I am today is quite exciting. I transitioned in my full-time job as a full-time business process analyst. I really enjoy it. I wasn’t quite sure because it’s not as technical, because I’m doing strictly business process now. But I’m really enjoying. I’m learning a lot and I’m getting great feedback. A lot of it comes from the information that I’ve learned through the courses and implementing that.

In addition, there’s been a lot of great things going on. I’m now, actually, proud to say I’m an instructor with Bridging the Gap, and I’m actually, now, teaching the courses that I took many, many, many years ago, or it feels like many years ago.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s really not that long. It was like a few years ago.

Beverly Sudbury: No, it’s not.

Laura Brandenburg: What do you like about – there’s so much that I want to hear about – but let’s just talk the instructor role a little bit. How is it to come full circle and now be on the other side of giving the feedback that you remember was so challenging to receive; to be on the receiving end?

Beverly Sudbury: It’s one of those things that I’m sitting there going every time I go to give feedback, I try to remember how I felt, and so I try to make sure that there’s – one of the things I try to do, always, when trying to help other people is make sure I give them something positive rather than just the constructive feedback.

I try to make sure the constructive feedback is rewarded in a very positive way to ensure that they get the positive notes out of it rather than just saying, “Oh my gosh, this person doesn’t like what I’ve done and I’ve got to re-do it all.” I do take that into context every time I try to do some feedback to the participants in the course. And, also, I try to encourage them to keep going.

Sometimes when you get the feedback, especially from the first module, that you say, “I don’t want to go forward anymore.” I encourage people to sit down, take a couple of breaths, have a cup of coffee or a cup of tea, or a glass of wine, whatever they would like to have, their beverage of choice, and just relax for a few moments and then come back and re-read it. That’s what I had to do. I try to give them that advice to carry through and encourage them to keep going.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and I love that you can come to that from a place of real empathy. Not all of our instructors have been through the program, but I feel like they all come from that very similar place wanting the best for the participant and wanting you to make it through.

Beverly Sudbury: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: How about your role? You mentioned that continuing to apply the concepts helped you move into this other role. Were there other ways that either of the ACBA certification or the techniques that you learned in The Business Analyst Blueprint® support that transition for you?

Beverly Sudbury: Yes, a lot of it was from the courses that I took and understanding, learning, and talking, even, to the other people in the courses and making sure that I had effective use of the instructor when I was in the course. That gave me a lot of information. You could sit there and you could take your notes. Even afterwards, you could go back and review things and make sure that you got the concepts, and then you could apply them.

Even today I go back in my notes and say, “Wait, how did I do that again before in the course?” or “How was that taught in the course?” I even look at the templates that were provided and say, “Oh, yeah, this recent one was a user story and we didn’t have a template.” I’m going, “Oh, I’ve got a template.” And I went back to my course material and picked that up and started using it and kept applying the techniques from the user story that was taught in the course. A lot of what I learned is really supporting how I’m moving my career forward.

Laura Brandenburg: I’m just curious, for somebody who might be in your shoes in a role where they’re doing business analysis but don’t have that formal recognition in wanting to move into a more senior full-fledged business analyst role, what would you recommend to somebody following in your footsteps?

Beverly Sudbury: Aside from getting a good course, what I did was I actually took the concepts of business analysis and I looked at what I was doing on a day to day, and I started recording. For example, I may not have been a business analyst, but I was still maybe in the testing role that I was doing analyzing requirements in order to create test cases. I would say, okay, that’s what I’m doing. I would look at things and say, “Oh, this is not clear. We need more requirements.”

And I would come up with the questions that would have to be taken back to a senior person to go back to the stakeholders to get the information. I was recording all of that type of work. As I was moving along, I was going to my managers and saying, “Look, I have done this work. It’s very similar to BA work. BA does this, and this is how I’m doing this,” and made a comparison. It made it seem more like people could understand that my job was just not pushing buttons to test a system, that I was actually doing some analysis and thinking working there.

That will help a lot in order for me to start moving into different roles. It was my first promotion to a Junior BA was because I proved that through the work I was doing to say this applies as a BA. They said, “Yeah, that really does apply and you really do think these things through. Let’s try you out as a Junior.”

Laura Brandenburg: That is, I think, so important for anybody thinking about what’s possible for them right now in their career. It is about, often, a skill development piece, but it is also about an ownership of “I have done these things” and these are BA skills, regardless of what my title is.

Beverly Sudbury: Correct.

Laura Brandenburg: Like I deserve this. I am already filling this role. There’s a putting yourself forward that I think is an important part of getting to that next step as well.

Beverly Sudbury: It’s a little bit of tooting your own horn and showing off a little bit, but not in a bad way.

Laura Brandenburg: Not in a bad way. It feels, I think, analytical people feel that 100% harder than a lot of other people. We feel like we’re tooting our horn and shouting it to the universe when it’s really just “I’m kind of doing this.” You have to force yourself, in a way.

Beverly Sudbury: Correct. And I think that’s the biggest thing a person who wants to move forward can do is just basically start recording everything that they’re capable of doing and saying to someone, “I’m capable of doing this.”

Laura Brandenburg: Similarly, how about for somebody who’s thinking about becoming a Bridging the Gap instructor or a course instructor anywhere? Obviously, we found a great win/win here, but from your side, what do you feel like it was that you did in between participating in the program and becoming an instructor that prepared you for it?

Beverly Sudbury: First of all, the biggest thing was when I first took the course and I saw how supportive the instructors were, I said one day I want to be someone like that. I started modeling what I saw in the course. I started trying to mentor people and work with people and try to encourage people and not just necessarily as a BA, but just in general life items and started working like that to be a mentor and help people work through their problems or their career goals and just that encouragement.

And to try to foster that within me so that when the day came that I would get an opportunity, I would be prepared for it. I think that’s the type of preparation anyone who wants to be an instructor could actually look at doing. Again, it’s self-work. It’s not something you have to pay for. It’s not something you have to do. You just, basically, say to your friends, “Let me help you through this. Let’s work through this.” And look at that.

Laura Brandenburg: Because when we’re looking for instructors, we’re obviously looking for competency with the skill areas and that ability to assess work and give feedback, but we’re also looking for the personality of somebody who can be caring and supportive and encouraging, and there are lots of ways to build that skillset and experience.

Last question, unless there’s anything else you’d like to share, but if you hadn’t chosen, a few years back or how ever many years ago that was, to invest in The Business Analyst Blueprint®, where do you think you would be today?

Beverly Sudbury: Still testing. Not that I was overly unhappy in testing, I knew that I was at the top. There was no place for me to move forward or advance. I knew I was at the top of my career for that position. So, I think I’d still be testing. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing to test, but I think I’m much happier, I feel more fulfilled in the position I’m in now. I feel like I’m giving more value to the stakeholders and the clients that I work with.

Laura Brandenburg: I’m sure there’s, you don’t have to share specifics, but I’m sure that’s also meant more salary and more recognition and other things that have come along with that.

Beverly Sudbury: Exactly. That all comes in. I’m not saying that you’re instantly going to be a millionaire, because we’d all love to be an instant millionaire, but it is nice to see that you are getting recognized not just in achievements of people giving you accolades, but also in the financial areas as well.

Laura Brandenburg: And not to overshadow what you said about feeling fulfilled in your work, too, because I have also gone from being a tester to a business analyst. Testers are so needed and it’s wonderful, but sometimes you’re just done. It becomes routine. Business analysis allows you a little more freedom and creativity with your work.

Beverly Sudbury: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you. This has been amazing. Is there anything else that you would like to share with people before we wrap things up?

Beverly Sudbury: The only other thing I want to say is the biggest thing to tell people is just take the time to ensure that you invest in yourself, whether it’s financial investment or whether it’s just time to sit down and make a catalog of all the things that you can achieve and believe that what you are achieving is of value and that you can even give more value if you just apply yourself.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much for that, Beverly, and thank you for being here today.

Beverly Sudbury: Thank you so much, Laura.

>>How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of F0rmal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes.

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How Tammy experienced a light bulb moment around process maps, even though she’d been doing them for over 20 years.
• How she leveraged data modeling techniques to cut down the turn-around time when working with an off-shore development team.
• How she created more project momentum early in her projects by applying the 8-step business analysis process framework, which led to people thanking her for her work. Even her boss said, “Wow, this project is going really well.”
• How she was able to nail a job interview by knowing the right terminology to use, and feeling more confident in her work.
• How updating her LinkedIn profile to highlight her BA training and be clear about her purpose led to her being contacted about more relevant job opportunities, and landing a new position she didn’t even apply for – resulting in a 20% salary increase.

Laura Brandenburg: Hi, this is Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap. I’m here today with ACBA Recipient, Tammy Schlador, from Tempe, Arizona.

Tammy Schlador: Hello.

Laura Brandenburg: Hi. So grateful to have you here. We’ve been chit-chatting a bit before we started and I’ve gotten to hear bits of the journey you’ve been on, but I’m excited to get the full details. If you can just take us back a few years. I know you’ve been a business analyst, you said for 20, maybe 25 years, but can you take us back about three or four years ago when you started The Blueprint program?

Tammy Schlador: I had just started a position at a steel foundry as a business analyst and this company wasn’t really big on BA processes. They really considered the lack of bureaucracy a bonus. I was really struggling. I was struggling because even though I had been a business analyst for a long time, I never had the formal training, like real specific training.

But I was also finding that the projects that I was working on, I’d get done with them and then the projects didn’t really go anywhere and/or I would get started on them, but I really couldn’t find the business, anyone who was willing to help me get going. And I’m like I’m doing this for you. So, I was really struggling with all of this.

So, then, I’m like, you know what. This company has an amazing training program. Their budget for it is huge. And so I went off looking and I found Bridging the Gap. I went asking, “Can I take these classes?” And they’re like, “Yeah, go ahead. No problem.” So, that’s where I started.

The first class I took was The Business Analyst Blueprint®.

Laura Brandenburg: You were looking to kind of formalize your experience and, it sounds like, be a little bit supported in an environment that didn’t really have a lot of support for a business analyst.

Tammy Schlador: Right. In The Business Analyst Blueprint® class, one of my big “wows” out of that class was the process map. How you actually try to process map, the visual display process. And when I got done through the class and working on my project, it was like, wow, this is awesome because my process is now so clear and it made me find the gaps and the missing pieces. It just forced me into a better process.

Through that, I had to pick a business process, a project that I was working on and I picked one that I was really struggling with it at the time and it was awesome because I had to figure out…the process was that we would make molds out of silica sand. Then we had to move them from the area where you make the mold into the area where the melted metal gets poured into them. The molds are huge. They’re about the size of a car. Where you put them and moving them around wasn’t easy. We had to be careful. I had to figure out how to do it better.

I was told, “People smarter than you have tried this and failed.” And I’m like, “Wow. No pressure here.”

I worked with all the people that were involved and in the end, I finally understood what the constraints were and I knew why it was failing. It wasn’t there. That wasn’t the problem. It was upstream. It was the things that were happening, decisions were made upstream in the process and the business said, “Yeah, we don’t want to change that process.” And I’m like, “Oh, alright then.”

I didn’t fix the problem, but I was able to talk intelligently about what the constraints were and why it was what it was.

Laura Brandenburg: Now, I’m sure you had done process maps before this.

Tammy Schlador: Oh yes.

Laura Brandenburg: What was the difference? What was the gap for you that got filled there?

Tammy Schlador: Part of it was who is doing what? Most of my process maps were simply just “what” and not who was doing them. Often, it was once you actually stop and said, “Who is doing what?” It was like, “Oh.” This is not just one step. This is six steps with decision trees that have to get put in there. That’s the piece that was the “Aha!” moment.

That when I got done with it, it’s like a process, especially one that I wasn’t familiar with. It’s different when it’s something you do day in and day out. But when you have to come into a new business, new process, and to understand it when you’re forced into the who and the what, and it’s just one action for each box, it’s like, wow. I know what’s happening now.

Laura Brandenburg: And it is. It’s often those little tweaks. A participant sometimes can feel like we’re being a bit sticklerish. That’s not a real word, but with how we review things and the feedback we give. But it is because those tweaks challenge your thinking and how we see things.

Tammy Schlador: They do.

Laura Brandenburg: Now you have that you just, I’m sure it’s natural for you.

Tammy Schlador: It is.

Laura Brandenburg: There are no questions. It’s always who and then what.

Tammy Schlador: Always. Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. Do you have any other takeaways from maybe the use cases or data modeling module that you want to talk about?

Tammy Schlador: The use cases, I’d never done that before. That was actually kind of fun. I’ve not ever really used it again because I haven’t needed to, but it was still just stretching the mind on another way to look at how to look at a business process.

Data modeling, that I have used. That has really helped me with having even just the format on how to lay it out and how to present the data to somebody else. That part has been really good and helpful with newer projects.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. I don’t think we spoke or shared this yet, but you are an SAP Business Analyst. Right?

Tammy Schlador: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: You have SAP expertise as well as business analysis. I can imagine that data comes up with maybe integrating systems or moving systems into SAP. How does it come out for you, the data modeling, specifically?

Tammy Schlador: The ERD where it shows the systems coming in and out, especially, I’ve had ones where you’re trying to understand where the primary set of data is, and then where it’s leaving and where it’s coming back. Sometimes, it’s just one direction. Having that diagram is even helped me understand the flow of all the information and what’s most important.

Also, the data dictionary, there have been times when I have had to design new tables that have to be used for a program. And so, having that process and those tools have made it so much simpler that I just kind of fill in all the blanks. I know exactly what kind of information I’m going to need to give to a program, or to somebody else to actually implement it without them coming back asking me, “Is that a number? Is that a text? What do you want it to look like?”

All of that just made it the first time and out, especially in my last job where the programmers were in China. There’s a whole 24-hour turnaround on any question that gets asked. It cut down all the questions and they were able to just produce what it was that I needed.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. It gets you to a lot of detail, for sure, that data modeling. But it’s necessary in a big system like that because, otherwise, the data just kind of disappears into the ether.

Tammy Schlador: Right.

Laura Brandenburg: You were one of our very first ACBA recipients. You took the Blueprint a few years ago and then in 2020, late 2020, early 2021, became an ACBA recipient by taking the BA Essentials, which is now Module 4 of The Business Analyst Blueprint®. Do you want to talk a little bit about that experience? I know you had a lot of Aha’s and kind of great feedback around the process and how that affected even the business that you were in. We’ll get to talk about your new job too.

Tammy Schlador: Right, right. Yeah. The BA Essentials was my favorite class out of all the ones that I did. That one, I would work on projects and there were times when I knew what I was doing, but I would feel a little lost at times, or sometimes I wondered, “What am I missing?” or “Why isn’t this flowing as easily as it should?”

After the 8-step business analysis process, when I learned all of that, and I start at the very beginning and worked my way through it, it was like, “Oh, I feel like I’m actually in control,” which is control is only so much what it is. But I still felt like I knew the steps.

I was very clear.

And then I could communicate with the rest of the team on what my expectations were and get clarity on what the business needed and the whole scope document and even having that clearly defined and signed off. It was like wow. I would just bring everyone into a room and say, “Okay, we need to discuss what it is you really want,” and then get them to sign off. When you get them to sign off, it gives a lot more responsibility on them to be really clear on what they want because they realize, oh, this is all she’s going to do.

Also, at the same time, I’ve got business support at the very beginning, and I actually generated a whole lot of positive energy around the project where people got excited about it. Where before, they just kind of acted like, “Well, you’re just going to go off and do and then you’ll tell me at the very end,” which was disheartening because in the very end, sometimes you get the “Oh, that’s what you did?” And I’m like, “That’s what you told me,” or “That’s what was documented.”

With the new 8-step process, I’m able to actually get better buy-in at the front end to get the positive energy through it. And then at the very end, people are like, “This is wonderful. Thank you.”

Laura Brandenburg: Yes. It sounds like just increase engagement all throughout as opposed to feeling like you had to figure it out on your own and then hope it’s right.

Tammy Schlador: Yes. And the last company I worked did not encourage user engagement throughout a project.

Laura Brandenburg: You were able to work around that, though.

Tammy Schlador: I was. And I was able to push the user engagement in a way that drew them in. Also, my boss even said, “Wow, this project is going really well.”

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Tell us a little bit about your new opportunity now.

Tammy Schlador: Now, I’m working in a pharmaceutical company, which is very different than a steel foundry. It’s my first time ever in pharmaceuticals. I had to go through a very rigorous interview process with many different people. Well, 75% of the interview was my SAP knowledge to make sure I actually knew what SAP was and how it worked. 25% was really about business analysis processes.

I felt like I was being quizzed through it. But I knew I got the answers right when you see the manager shaking his head and smiling. A lot of it was around the functional spec, around a scope document, getting user requirements documented, getting the user to sign off on it, staying on a timeline, which is part of the eight steps of having a very clear timeline that goes through the whole process.

All of that was part of the interview process. I just felt like I nailed it. I don’t believe that I could have done that without going through both the Essentials class and The Blueprint class. Going through the BA Essentials class and going through The Blueprint class, I was able to nail the interview.

Laura Brandenburg: You mentioned, too, like it was the terminology. Kind of intuitively you knew it before, but having the coursework helped you have more confidence.

Tammy Schlador: Yes. In the past, I know I fumbled through some of those questions. I felt like I knew the answer, but I just wasn’t communicating it clearly enough. You could just see on their faces, “I’m not sure if she really understands what she’s doing.” With the right terminology and the confidence, I was able to, very confidently, answer the questions. I know that’s what managers are looking for.

Laura Brandenburg: For sure. How did they find you? Did they find you on LinkedIn?

Tammy Schlador: They did. They found me on LinkedIn and sent me a message. When I first got the message, I was like, “Yeah, you know, I’m missing this and this.” And they responded back with, “Well, do you have XY and Z?” I’m like, “Yes.” They were like, “We want to talk to you.” And I’m like, “Alright. Let’s talk.”

I did update my LinkedIn profile recently. There are two things that I did on it. One was answering my why, my passion, what moves me. And my why is, “My passion is to create environments that are logical and intuitive by working to solve problems and improve systems and processes with innovative ideas.” That’s on there.

Then, also, about the same time, I completed the ACBA and I put that on my LinkedIn profile and promoted it as well. After those two changes, every week I’d get people sending me messages for new leads. Now, the positions are much more business analysis centric, which is awesome because that’s what I want to do. Before, a lot of them were more technical/functional positions that I wasn’t really qualified for. Now, I’m actually getting the right leads, which makes me feel really good.

Laura Brandenburg: So many people are out trying to find that right opportunity. They actually found you.

Tammy Schlador: Right. I wasn’t looking. I was hoping. I was wanting to move on, but I wasn’t actively looking when it came knocking.

Laura Brandenburg: And you almost said no. You’re like, “Eh, I miss these things.”

Tammy Schlador: Yes. With the job at the steel foundry, it bumped my salary up into the six-figure salary. I got good raises while I was there. But this new job, I thought I would push a little on the envelope, what I thought was pushing on the envelope, and I asked for a 20% raise. The manager didn’t even bat an eye. He was just like, “Yeah, that’s within our salary range.” And I’m like, “Oh. Alright.”

Laura Brandenburg: Congratulations.

Tammy Schlador: Thank you.

Laura Brandenburg: What has being in the new company having that kind of salary, what has that meant to you?

Tammy Schlador: It has been amazing. First off, I’m able to do some things and plan some vacations. Of course, still waiting for COVID to calm down a little bit more. But I have some amazing vacations with my family planned with the extra money.

With the new position, I have a boss who is amazingly supportive and who respects me and trusts me. The change has just been amazing. I feel like a whole new person with this new job.

Laura Brandenburg: I feel like I can testify to that because we were in webinars together just a few months ago. Your energy is just amazing and you seem really happy. It’s great to see that.

Tammy Schlador: Thank you.

Laura Brandenburg: Final question, any words of wisdom for somebody looking to follow in your footsteps?

Tammy Schlador: I would say that even with my 20 plus years of experience doing business analysis work, this class, this training has just stepped up my game and helped me more. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing something; you can still continue to learn and grow and become better. That’s what I was looking for and that’s what I found. Even now that I finished my ACBA, I’m not done learning. I’m not done growing. I am still continuing that journey.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s a learning profession. Thank you so much.

Tammy Schlador: It is.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you for sharing that, Tammy. Thank you so much for your time today. Congratulations.

Tammy Schlador: Thank you.

>>How to Learn the Foundational Business Analyst Skills (And Build Your Body of F0rmal Work Samples)

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll gain real-world experience in the industry-standard techniques and business analysis processes.

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

Tune in to discover how Cathy:

• Got back into doing business analysis by modeling an event management process for her non-profit.
• Fell back in love with everything business analysis while being part of The Business Analyst Blueprint®.
• Leveraged the downtime of COVID to start exploring vendors and system integrations to consolidate data from multiple different systems.
• Gained a broader perspective of business analysis work through the BA Essentials Master Class.

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome. I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap. I’m here today with Cathy Warren, who’s from the Detroit, Michigan area. She’s one of our most recent ACBA recipients, and a program director at a non-profit, and used The Business Analyst Blueprint® to really solidify a lot of her experience. Welcome, Cathy. So glad to have you here.

Cathy Warren: Well, thank you, Laura. I appreciate being invited to join in on this conversation.

Laura Brandenburg: If you could just start us out, tell us a bit about where you were in your career when you started The Business Analyst Blueprint®, which I know is quite a few years ago now, right?

Cathy Warren: Yes. I did mine back in 2017.

Laura Brandenburg: Oh, you were one of the very first.

Cathy Warren: Not the first, but close. Well, in 2016, this is a quick background, I was wanting to kind of update my skills and try to get back into a business analyst position. I had been working with this non-profit, which I love. We do organ donation awareness, so it’s near and dear to my heart. I’ll always volunteer with it. But I was just getting an inkling for wanting to get back into business analysis. I had done that work right out of college for my first 10 years. We were systems analysts way back then in the day. I wanted to see if I still enjoyed it, liked it, and could do the work.

When I saw your The Business Analyst Blueprint® workshop advertised, it really enticed me. You have an interesting way of enticing people who are on the fence with prices that are discounted, so you can’t say no. That pushed me over the edge. It was the added incentive I needed on top of my interest.

I took The Blueprint in 2017 and fell back in love with process modeling, data modeling, all of that work that I had done before. My focus, in my time, was more strictly in the requirements definition phase. I had never been on the beginning side with goals and objectives and scope, and I hadn’t been on the inside with testing. I’d always been in the middle, very waterfall approaches. Yours was my first jump back in the pool and absolutely loved it.

I continued doing some further education on top of that. When I saw your master class again being offered just last year, last fall, with the added incentive of getting the ACBA, I’m like, okay, it’s just meant to be. It was the right time of day to see the email, to make it click, and let’s just go for it.

Everything has kind of worked in a great line of progression if you will with my 18 years working with this nonprofit, we are very small so you wear multiple hats. We are very, I wouldn’t say completely paper and pencil, but maybe a notch or two above. It’s not completely automated and everything is not in software and fun, great little packages on your laptop. It’s a very manual process.

But in doing the work, especially with The Blueprint, one of the things that you emphasized was that if you were not currently in a business analyst position doing that work, take the work that you currently do and model it. That’s what I did and it was a great exercise because not only was I able to document what I do for future generations, if you will in the nonprofit, it really just helped me hone my skills. It was a perfect way to take what you currently do and put it into a BA vernacular, if you will.

Laura Brandenburg: And I know that 2017 was quite a long time ago, but do you remember the process that you documented?

Cathy Warren: I believe the one I did for process modeling was actually the process you have to do to get a liquor license for an event. We have to fundraise and you fundraise better when you have a little liquid refreshment on your side.

I modeled that process and that process is, again, manual and automated. It was a great way to kind of intersect all that you had taught in The Blueprint and it really made me think about what I do. It’s so easy when you think about a process, you don’t think about all the steps until you really start going through it one at a time. It was an excellent exercise for myself in my nonprofit world as well as to kind of learn how to ride the bike again.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s such a perfect example. We get questions all the time of like it’s business analysis. Is it relevant in a nonprofit? And it’s like it’s a business process. It should almost be like an organizational process. It’s just a step-by-step of how work flows in an organization. And so it definitely applies.

Do you, especially being in that environment where a lot of things work automated, how did you find…do you remember what your use case was or your data modeling? How did you apply those specific skill areas?

Cathy Warren: What I did in those areas, and again, that was interesting. When I jumped to the data model, I kind of did it in two different approaches. One; to kind of mimic the information I needed for the liquor license processing, but two; just to kind of see if I could do it.

I looked at our membership. We don’t have a donor management system. It’s all in Excel and file folders of notes. You meet people at different events. Kind of doing a data model on all the information that we needed to collect for our members, which leads to our sponsors, which leads to our volunteers, which leads to events that we sponsor, it really helped me kind of get a bigger understanding, a better handle on all the data that we do maintain. Now, what we’re doing, we are finally at a stage where we’re starting to look at more of a true donor management system.

Now that I know what our needs are, I can look at these packages that are being offered to us by other organizations like Kindful and One Cause and such like that, that help the nonprofit world, now I’ve really helped define my requirements. It’s really been beneficial. It really has.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s amazing that you’re applying that work so far into the future. That’s pretty cool.

Cathy Warren: It’s been helpful.

Laura Brandenburg: For those of you who are considering The Business Analyst Blueprint®  today, today it’s a four-module program where you’d go through business process use cases and wireframes, data modeling, and then the BA Essentials Master Class.

For people like Cathy who were with us in the very early days, the fourth requirement wasn’t part of the old Blueprint, so you were part of a special program that we did to do the BA Essentials Master Class, which was more recent.

Tell us a little bit about what you chose for that project and kind of what has materialized between where you were and where you are now.

Cathy Warren: When I took the master class back last fall, I finished with that in January, I focused on, and I’ll be honest, you had to hone down my scope. I wanted to do the world because it was just right there. I wanted to do everything from event management, sponsorship management, membership management, and everything. And you were like, “No, Cathy, just take one piece.” That was very wise. I focused on our members.

I did kind of the process that we go through with verifying our members, if you will, looking at the benefits that we offer our members, because those are the things, obviously, that we’d want to track. Our members have events. We sponsor their events. They sponsor our events. One of the things we offer to our members is just publicizing what they’re doing. Knowing their events and what they’re doing is very important to us.

For the master class, I focused on the member management portion of it which, again, was extremely timely to update that as our discussions continued with some donor management systems, if you will.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. So you started tackling the project of moving members into more of a donor management system?

Cathy Warren: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: What has come of that so far?

Cathy Warren: Well, I think we have talked with several vendors about their product. Our situation, obviously, part of an effect of COVID, is we have been basically shut down on our budgets since last March. We are very fundraising oriented. If we don’t make money, there is no money to do anything with. We don’t get any federal funding or anything like that. We have to go find our money or have great events that people want to come and support.

We got, kind of, put on hold and turned our focus into just helping to publicize what our members were doing. Rather than oriented towards ourselves, we went oriented towards our members and did stuff on social media to keep safe.

Because of that, we took advantage of that time to talk to several vendors about their software packages and what they offer for member management, donor management, those kinds of lives. We were looking at it trying to condense all the different stove-type packages that we do have.

In the nonprofit world, we use, and you use this too, we use Constant Contact for emails. You have a set of emails in Constant Contact. We use Form Stack for doing event ticket ordering and such. Again, you have contact information.

We got very tired of having things in all these different systems, so we started looking at the vendors for what either integration they had with the current ones we had, or what they could replace so that we could reduce our budget. That’s kind of how we spent the last year. We are still on hold. Our events won’t take place until October now, so we’re still kind of in a bit of a holding pattern, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s allowed you to do some real due diligence on tools which may be…

Cathy Warren: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: I can imagine if you’re wearing multiple hats, finding the time to do the business analysis can be a challenge.

Cathy Warren: Yes. You don’t have time to sit there and talk to vendors about what theirs does vs. what their neighbors’ does. It’s been helpful. It’s been very helpful.

Laura Brandenburg: One of the other things…you and I had talked a bit earlier and you had talked about how you shared your ACBA, now that you are officially ACBA certified, you finished the first three classes a while back and then this past year you finished the BA Essentials Master Class. What are some of the results that you’ve seen from that, specifically?

Cathy Warren: Well, for me, personally, the master class really gave me a wonderful view from Point A to Point Z, if you will, start to finish of a full project. Because, again, my focus in my previous life, if you will, had been kind of in the middle and I really hadn’t had a lot of exposure from a BA perspective on the front end or the back end of a project. So, having your course, that master class, really just extended The Blueprint so that you really kind of know the path that you need to go on. Going through those individual modules, the light bulb was just going off. “This makes so much sense. Wish I knew that then.”

Because of that, and I did get it out, I was very proud to have received that. It was great working with you and I got to work with Dr. Michael Brown, with reviewing my materials. I know him from a local IIBA® Southeast Michigan chapter. He was very kind to me.

Laura Brandenburg: Michael White, right?

Cathy Warren: Oh, I’m sorry. Michael White.

Laura Brandenburg: I remember seeing you two get matched up and I was like, “Oh, that’s so interesting.” Those are done a bit randomly, like on the back end, but it was kind of cool. It was like I think they know each other.

Cathy Warren: No. Dr. White was excellent. Met him in person a couple of times before COVID. So, when I knew he was working with you, I kind of pulled his ear one time and I said, “You wouldn’t happen to be looking at my stuff, would you?” So, no, Dr. White was amazing. He was wonderful to work with. He’s a great guy to know and, wow, what a resource as well. LinkedIn and everywhere he is.

I am involved and active in the IIBA® Southeast Michigan Chapter. What I found interesting is I’m getting lots of queries going, “What is this ACBA and how do I get it?” “How does it equate?” There’s a lot of interest and a lot of intrigue. I’m really looking forward to seeing the ACBA kind of take off and just continue its upward progression. A lot of people are very interested in it.

You kind of get a little bit overwhelmed with all the academic-ese in the BABOK® Guide (A Guide to the Business Analysis Body of Knowledge®). While it’s good and we need it, it’s another step to put that practical application in. Because then it shows that not only do you understand what’s in the BABOK® Guide, you can use it and do it.

I applaud you for taking the effort to put forward the ACBA. I know that had to be a long-time project that, hopefully, you like seeing where it’s progressing.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, thank you for that. It has been. It’s been one of those things on my mind for a while that part of it is seeing the amount of effort that people put into the program and realizing that this is not a typical business analyst training course where you kind of go through the material and maybe take a little quiz at the end. There’s an intensive process that you go through.

Really, it’s about recognizing the achievement that you have made in your career to make that investment, to do the application, and to have it reviewed and ensure it meets industry standards. It just felt like we needed to be recognizing that in a more formal way. That’s how the ACBA came to be.

Cathy Warren: I have noticed on LinkedIn, which is where I focus now, prior to getting the ACBA, I was just another person out on LinkedIn, but after putting the ACBA out there and doing posts on it, I’ve got it in my featured section so that people can see it and get more information out about it, more people are looking at me. I know it’s going to help me take that next step to getting a BA job. That’s what I’m looking forward to.

Laura Brandenburg: I want to just reflect to you that everything you shared that you’ve been doing at least the last year, we haven’t gone through everything, you are doing business analysis. You might not have the title, but you are doing a lot of business analysis. Looking at vendors, evaluating vendors and system integrations, that’s not junior-level BA work. That’s true BA work.

Cathy Warren: Again, the thing that I really like is that you just get the full picture. That’s what I’ve always enjoyed about the courses that you do, whether they’re the half-hour little quick courses you do or the full up courses, the material that you put out that’s free and available for everybody on career progression has really just kind of kept me looking at the end of the tunnel. I appreciate all that you do to help us.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you. Any last tips for someone in a nonprofit space thinking about doing a BA role or kind of wearing multiple hats and wanting to get more into business analysis? What could they do to follow along in the path that you’ve taken for yourself?

Cathy Warren: Absolutely. I know for myself, because I had the background in doing this kind of work, my interest was there and just kind of re-honing it. So, if people have stepped away for a while, I had the pleasure of being able to be a mom at home with my two boys when they were little for six years without an official job, if you will.

Coming back in and just going through this material has really just helped upgrade my skills, update my skills, and has shown me that the work that you do, you just have to know how to document it and make it visual. Everything is so visual now with all the data analytics and everything. My mind has always worked that way, that’s why I’ve always like process modeling and data modeling because if I read it textually, it just goes in one ear and out the other. But if you see it visually, then it hones in.

If you’ve got the interest, my advice is go for it. Take the course. You offer so many, “Here, take a look at it if you’re trying to decide,” kind of courses which gave me, I believe, I started with one of those. Take a look. If you’re interested, this is what we’re doing. That was enough to interest me to kind of step through the gate and go ahead and try it.

If there’s an interest, I say go for it. You’ll figure out, because you guys and all your instructors, really do focus on the fact that you don’t have to be in a BA position, but just look at what you’re doing in your life. Whether you’re doing household management, nonprofit management, business management, QA, there have been so many people that I’ve met through your workshops with all different facets and they all have this interest in seeing the visual, meet the textual, in helping to define a process better so it makes sense for the end users. It’s been a fun path. Hope I continue down this path.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes. It’s been so awesome to speak with you today, Cathy. Thank you for sharing your journey and your advice. We celebrate your achievements and your successes here. I’m really excited to see you continue to apply these skills. Come back to that career that I can tell that you have a big passion for.

Cathy Warren: Thank you again. I appreciate all that you do and you definitely have a follower in me for life. I won’t stop the follow.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Thank you, thank you.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

You’ll create validated work samples and be a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Business Analyst Blueprint® <<

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• Why she decided to pursue a career in business analysis, even though her first job applications were rejected.
• How she moved from a 13-year career in underwriting to doing business analysis with the title of Transformation Manager.
• How she succeeded in the program even though English is her third language, and now works on a multi-lingual team.
• How she is now finding gaps in the process models created by others, even though she struggled with her first use case.
• Why she invested in herself, even when her employer wouldn’t fund her professional development, and how that got her unstuck in her career.

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome today. I’m here with Zineb Iotti from Zurich who is an ACBA Recipient with us and also a participant in The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program. I’m really excited to learn more about her story.

What I know is she started before she was a business analyst and then she got a very exciting opportunity to move into a BA role last year. I’m excited to hear more about it. Welcome.

Zineb Iotti: Thank you very much, Laura. Thanks for inviting me.

Laura Brandenburg: Very excited to have you here. Can you share a little bit about where you were in your career before you started with us in The Blueprint?

Zineb Iotti: You said it. Sure. I wasn’t a BA. I didn’t know about the BA at all. When I started, I was a Senior Assistant. I worked for an insurance company. When I started, I had worked with them for 13 years. But I felt that I was in a situation where it was stagnation. I was ready to do something else, but I didn’t find any opportunities open for me inside of the company. At that time, I decided I need to do something else.

I started looking for jobs outside and by chance, I saw a job ad with one of the biggest businesses looking for business analysts for the domain I worked for. Then I was amazed. I said, “I know that this is my work. I know everything. But what is a business analyst?” I read the requirements for the job and I said to myself, “This is good for me,” but I didn’t know some of the tasks that are required there with words like requirements, specifications, process mapping. I can’t imagine what is that and how to do it. All the relationship with the others and the communication with the others there. I said, “Okay, it’s me. I like to speak to the others. It’s not a problem.”

So, I applied. It didn’t work, for sure because I wasn’t a business analyst. But then I said to myself, this is a job that they need my skills, but I don’t have what they need, also. So, I have to do some effort and build some skills. I did some research on the internet about the business analyst and by chance, again, I came across your organization.

Laura Brandenburg: That was quite a journey. And how so many people find that this is a role that I’m really excited about and well suited for, but there’s this gap in the skill set or even the terminology. There’s a lot of terminology in the business analyst role for sure.

Can you talk a little bit about your decision to join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, specifically? Did you have any doubts and what ultimately prompted you to join that program?

Zineb Iotti: As I stated, I started looking on the internet about how I can learn the skills for business analyst. I came across your organization, but I had some doubts, yes, for sure. I remember I asked one of the colleagues located in the U.S., I asked, “Please, can you see if this organization is serious and accountable.” I waited one week or more for her answer. She didn’t answer then.

In the meantime, I was reading your blogs, your articles, I watched the videos and I was amazed at the content. The content resonated with me. I found it serious and I said, “Here, I’m going to apply.” I signed up first for the BA Essentials Master Class. I started with the master class. As soon as I finished the master class, I started The Blueprint.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s right. I remember that now. It was quite back-to-back for you. The timing just worked out.

What ultimately prompted you to try? What were you looking for out of the program?

Zineb Iotti: As I said, I was new for everything and when I did the master class, it wasn’t easy for me to understand everything. It was a hard time to learn. I spent too much time reading and reading again, twice, third time, reading and reading. But I managed to do it. Afterwards, also, I could also join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program.

Laura Brandenburg: Does any particular module or component of that program stand out to you?

Zineb Iotti: It was amazing with The Blueprint. It was the Use Cases and Wireframes. I remember, I think, for the process one, I get stuck with the use case and the wireframe, I remember. My instructor was Alexandra and she was trying hard to push me because when I worked on the workbook, I think I went in the wrong way the first time with this module.

She noticed it and she got in contact with me saying that it’s wrong; we have to work it again. I was upset because it was the holiday. But she tried to explain to me the problems and what I should do. I did the rework in my workbook and I appreciate all the work and effort she did with me to understand, to complete it successfully. I’m grateful to her. I appreciate all that she did with me.

Laura Brandenburg: That is one of the things a lot of our instructors is they really do care. All of them care. Alexandra was your instructor and they want to see you succeed.

Zineb Iotti: Exactly. I had the same experience with Disha also from the master class.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s not uncommon. That’s part of why the instructor support is so important, too, is when a concept is so new, to kind of get off track a little bit and need that redirection. I think there is more learning in the rework even though the rework is incredibly painful. It can be really painful. That’s where the real learning happens for sure.

Zineb Iotti: Exactly. Here we see your excellence, your instructors.

Laura Brandenburg: And of you to persevere through that. That’s pretty awesome.

I know that English is…is it your second language or your third language? Because you’re multi-lingual.

Zineb Iotti: My mother was a language addict. My second language is French. I don’t know if English is the third or the fourth because I speak also German. I can say it’s the third. It’s the third because I started to learn English before German.

Laura Brandenburg: I would be interested to hear, and to share with others considering the program, too, we’ve talked a little bit about this, but some of the success strategies that you used with English not being your primary language. Obviously, it is a course in English. I think that created another layer of challenge.

Zineb Iotti: Exactly. It was challenging. Like I said, the master class for me, it was challenging because everything was new, the vocabulary. As I said, I had to read the material once, twice, three times and every time, also, I was noting the vocabulary. Sometimes, also, watching videos about the one vocabulary, functional specifications. What is this? I couldn’t, in my dictionary, I couldn’t find it. What is this? I had to watch some videos to understand. The language, which is a challenge, but the hard work also paid off. As I said, also, the excellence and the skills of the instructors helped me.

Laura Brandenburg: Let’s talk about…because I know you started not in a BA role. You told us about being in underwriting. But now you are in a business analyst role. How did that role come to be? How did your Blueprint coursework play into that? What was the path? I just want to hear more about it and be able to celebrate that success with you as well?

Zineb Iotti: Thank you very much. You know I’m not a business analyst.

Laura Brandenburg: By title.

Zineb Iotti: That’s kind of, exactly. Everything I learned, I apply it now, although my title is not a business analyst. My new position now is Transformation Manager.

Laura Brandenburg: I actually think that is a way cooler title than business analyst. Transformation Manager.

Zineb Iotti: I use the techniques I learned. What I learned with you and with the program, it opened my thinking of analyzing. Much before deciding. Solving problems. It was in my skills before, solving problems, I like to analyze figures and things like that, but when I did the program, also, it’s reinforced the skills. Today, I’m using everything I learned. In my position today, because we have a migration system, I’m working solving problems it creates, this migration.

The process mapping, also, is something that I’m doing today. I didn’t do it myself, but I work in a group with other people. Their function is the process modeling, but they came to me to help them. As soon as I read the process, I see that there are gaps here or errors here and without your program, I couldn’t do this.

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like you’re making a huge impact. What do you like most about this new role?

Zineb Iotti: Various tasks and new routine, helping others. There are some challenges. I can do my work without analyzing things. This is the thing I was looking for. I needed work where I can think, analyze and then solve a problem. It matched with the business analyst.

Laura Brandenburg: If I recall, you’re working in a German-speaking company now, right?

Zineb Iotti: Because I am sitting in Switzerland, we speak German locally. But I work for an international team. With the team, we speak English. But I still work for the French company, so I help others as I speak French also.

Laura Brandenburg: Have you found, because we get this question a lot and me being American, English-based speaker, I don’t have personal experience in it, but how have you found the business analysis processes to apply in all those different cultures? Are there variances to it or are you able to apply the same kinds of techniques?

Zineb Iotti: I think this is the same. Now it’s the same because we work with the objective of standardization. I worked with other colleagues to map the processes from four countries. We have to do it in the same tool, in the same manner. There are no differences. During the work, we can see some differences in the way that people process the work.

Laura Brandenburg: That makes sense. How did this opportunity actually come to be? You took The Blueprint and then there was some space, and then the opportunity came up. Can you kind of walk us through that a little bit more?

Zineb Iotti: When I started the master class, I asked that I join a project team working just for 20% of my time. I could get this opportunity and they started to help one project team, like I was an SME. It took two years doing this, but when I got the certification of The Blueprint, I contacted the project manager here in Switzerland and I explained my objective, my goals, and explained what I did.

I was clear. I said I would like to join your team. It wasn’t easy because in every company there is a budget for onboarding new members. It took some time. But as soon as the opportunity was open and he could have the budget, they called me and I started.

In between, before the decision came up, I got two interviews. I was frustrated waiting for this decision to come.

Laura Brandenburg: And then really excited when it happened.

Zineb Iotti: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Last question. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing so generously. The last question I have for you is what would you recommend to people who are in that stage and looking to follow in your footsteps? They might be in a role that they felt was limiting and that they were stuck in and they were a little frustrated that things weren’t happening more quickly. What would you recommend to them?

Zineb Iotti: What I can recommend is that if someone feels like me, the desire to evolve in their career, they have to do it, but they have to invest in themselves. I would recommend and advise that they don’t need to wait until the employer or the organization they work for pay for the development. It can happen. It might be that they have no budget. This is what happened with me. I didn’t ask because I knew that nobody would invest in my education or in my development. I did it and now I invest in myself. And as you see, it paid off. Everyone, if someone chose the path for becoming a business analyst and I can just recommend, invest in yourself if you don’t have the support from your employer.

The second thing I can say, also, that I recommend your organization, your courses to everyone because they are hands-on courses. It’s not just abstract or theory, it’s practical. When we are finished, we know what to do if we are business analysts.

The second thing is it’s a framework. The course is a framework flow if you want to work like a business analyst. It gives everyone tools to use. You are not empty. You have a backup with the tools.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. I just want to celebrate and honor the investment that you made in yourself, too. You made the choice and then you followed through and I’m so excited to see where you are today and to hear you have that amazing title of Transformation Manager, which is still a business analyst. I still feel it is a business analyst and probably more. Very cool.

Congratulations and thank you so much for sharing your story.

Zineb Iotti: Thank you very much. Thanks to you. I’m grateful for what I learned with you. I’m grateful to you.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How she received a $26,000 salary increase while moving into her first business analyst role and identifying her transferable skills.
• How she became the go-to business analyst in her organization, and what separated and elevated her from other BAs on her team.
• How she received immediate recognition from her manager and CIO after posting about her BA training on LinkedIn and was also contacted by a few recruiters.
• The unexpected takeaways she had from the data modeling module, given her deep technical expertise.
• The additional confidence her training has given her in her business analyst skills and experience, even though she already had her Project Management Professional (PMP)® certification.

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome. Laura Brandenburg here from Bridging the Gap, here today with Andrea Wilson who is an Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA) recipient and a participant in The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, and agreed to share a little bit more about her career and her experience with the program. Thank you so much, Andrea. You’re joining us from Tallahassee, right?

Andrea Wilson: Tallahassee, Florida. Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, welcome. And you are an Information Resource Management Specialist. Is that correct?

Andrea Wilson: Information Resource Management Consultant. It is a lot.

Laura Brandenburg: Consultant, yeah. Way better. Do you want to just start by maybe sharing a little bit about where you were before you started The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program and what you were looking for out of your career?

Andrea Wilson: Sure. It’s been quite the rollercoaster. I started my job a few years back. It was new to me. I started as a Systems Analyst. I was doing coding and I was there for just a few months and someone mentioned that there was this business analyst role coming open. One of the managers put a bug in my ear and said, “You’ve been doing really good. This is an opportunity. We’d hate to lose you. We hate to see you walk out the door.” It kind of fell on me to do a little bit of research.

I had, apparently, been doing business analysis type things and did not realize that’s what I was doing. I started kind of searching around asking questions, gathering information and in my searches, I came across Bridging the Gap and saw some information about starting a business analysis career. I thought, “Okay, I’ll read this and see what I get.” One of the things it talked about was kind of looking at transferable skills and I thought, “Okay, what are these skills?” I started to read through them and realized, “I can do that.” “I’ve done that.” “I’ve been doing that.” I think that gave me just a little bit of confidence, enough to say, “Okay, I’m going to apply for this.”

I did and I got an interview. It was going to be a huge jump for me so I thought, oh, okay, I really need to know what I need to know. I took a few more of those free courses that were available from Bridging the Gap because I was so excited about what I was learning and it seemed like things I could apply. It made sense. It wasn’t just this vague notion of stuff.

I did. I went through a few of those and went through the interview, made the second interview, and there I was with just these few free trainings. I got a $26,000 pay increase which was huge.

Immediately, I’m in the role and there’s a lot, the heavy hitter stakeholders and all these things and I really wanted to hone my skills more. You found that I was a return customer. I took the Use Cases and Wireframes class. After that, I jumped into The Blueprint almost immediately. It just kind of changed my world. I realize I’m being wordy here, but I really want to talk about my path because I lacked the full confidence I needed to just really push forward. As I learned more concrete and structured skills, I was able to start applying them.

Once I did that, I quickly became the go-to person after The Blueprint. That was amazing. That was good. I became kind of the right-hand person. I’ve just flourished since then. When the opportunity for the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA) came open, oh man, I just didn’t have the money. I didn’t have the money. COVID happened and our office didn’t have the money, but I’d had so much success and I said, okay, I’m just going to bite the bullet here and pay for this and do it.

The very first thing that happened after I finished it was I posted it on LinkedIn and this CIO sent me a message saying, “Superb. This is awesome.” I got immediate recognition from a place I did not expect it. The confidence just continued to grow. And that’s how I got here.

Laura Brandenburg: Wow. I’m so glad you shared that. I had no idea. That was so gorgeous. That’s such a beautiful story.

There’s so much that I think we can unpack there and go into a little bit, but the piece that you started with, the transferable skills, I’ve been doing this before but I didn’t know what it was called. Can you talk a little bit about in that first interview when you were interviewing for that business analyst position and that’s where you got the $26,000 pay increase? How did you start to speak to those things? We have a lot of people in that position. What gave you the confidence to say, “I can do this based on what I’ve done in the past?”

Andrea Wilson: I started thinking about roles that I had in the past. When I looked at the, I think it was an eBook. It was something. I don’t remember. It was so long ago that I got from Bridging the Gap about starting my BA career. There’s that roadmap there. One of the first things on the roadmap was looking at transferable skills and I thought, “Okay. I’ve done QA. I’m process-driven. I’ve done these diagrams for programming. I’ve done flowcharting and things like that.” There were so many things on that list that I said, “I have these skills. I just have not seen them under this title.”

Once I picked out several of them and I said, “I’m doing this. I’m doing that. I’ve done this. I’ve done that.” Okay. Let me read a bit further. Let me see exactly what a BA is doing. And I’m like, okay. When you come into something you just don’t know. It was just kind of a no-brainer. You get to know who’s who. You get to know the “why” behind the situation. You get to know, “What’s the end goal?” “What are you trying to do?” What is my role?”

Those were all things that I saw very early on. It’s actually been a repeat thing that I’ve seen across many of the courses since I’ve taken so many. You always start there. I’ve seen that and that was what made me say, “Okay, I’ve got confidence. I can move forward with this. Let’s just go and see where it takes us.” That’s what I did.

Laura Brandenburg: Then you were in the first position and it sounded like it felt like it was a big jump. You had the confidence that you had done it before. But when you were in it, can you talk a little bit about being in it, officially, for the first time?

Andrea Wilson: It’s funny because it’s an IT office and in an IT role, I started kind of in this development role. But as a developer, you have to do your own business analysis anyway, but it’s different. You do your developer analysis.

Once I moved into the role, I think I was still considered a developer, and folks would come to me and ask me development-type questions. Or when I would go to these meetings with the stakeholders, there was kind of this expectation that breaking down the business process was not where I was going to go. Being able to hold those conversations, to help to define scope and to reign in scope and to keep it from creeping, and then just having those conversations about where are we going? Is everybody on the same page about what the plan is? That’s what when I first stepped into the role, there was just kind of this uncertainty, and having taken some of the courses, I had some tools.

I bought some of the templates that were available so I had ideas for starting meetings with the stakeholders and having those discussions and trying to figure out where to go, looking at artifacts that already existed. Those were things that gave me structure and allowed me to function in a way that was very organized and present myself in a way that was very organized. Using those tools, putting out professional-looking meeting agenda, was very helpful. I gained a lot of those things through these courses.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. It sounds like there wasn’t a lot of structure to the business analyst role in your organization. Some people have “This is how you do things,” but they were really looking to you to bring that structure.

Andrea Wilson: For our agency, we have what I think is a small IT department. We’ve got quite a few developer network teams, all these sister positions. But the BA position there was fairly new. We’d had another person in the role, but she kind of had her own process. It was very informal and I think I had the autonomy to be informal, but the structure is important and that helps the tech team of a developer, that helps keep everyone on the same page. Having that structure provides a guideline for everybody to follow, then also provide some continuity from each iteration of the project or each sprint that we do along with our users. Very informal. The sessions with our users were very informal.

Now we can go to a place where everything was documented. Everything was there in black and white or whatever color I chose to make the template. But then, we started into this very structured process and our users got used to it and they liked it. They were happy with now, okay, this is organized and it makes some sense and we can refer back to documents. It was a big change, I think, for everybody. But it was a pleasant change.

Management, my direct management changed about a year into that role for me. The person that came in came in from outside the organization. She learned that I had a different role and was a bit apprehensive not just with me, but with the whole team. And quickly, after seeing that structure, “Oh, you guys know what you’re doing here,” and adopted some of those things. And it was very helpful to bring us all together.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s amazing. It sounds like you not just excelled in the role, but brought a lot of leadership to that role, and a lot of standards and gained a lot of traction.

You mentioned being the go-to person and I’m guessing that’s kind of what made you the go-to person. Is that a fair…?

Andrea Wilson: After the new manager came in, yeah, that did. Once she got to see what we were doing and our processes, The Blueprint was coming along for me at that time. We just were able to mesh and talk through a lot of these documents and these diagrams that were created. Then just showing the overall process, looking at the contexts between the different systems was there because it had been documented. Quickly, I became the, “Let’s go ask Andrea.”

Laura Brandenburg: A great place to be in.

Andrea Wilson: That built so much confidence. People felt comfortable enough to come and ask you, especially if there’s a, “Okay, we need an answer now. You probably have it. What is there?” Yes, that did build a lot of confidence. I couldn’t have done it without all of the studying I did and all of the direction that I had, and all the guidance I had from these different programs.

Even the free things that you put out there in looking at the studies from other people, watching their confidence build, the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA)  was a no-brainer. I’m glad to see that there’s a business analyst certification that came out of that. I have a project management certification through PMI®. But this, just for my business analyst skills, took things to a different level.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you for that. Just the talking about your Blueprint experience, specifically, any of those four modules – business process, use cases, data modeling, or the BA Essentials, do one of those stand out, specifically, where we could talk about an example of what you did for your work sample and how that played out for you? Which one maybe jumps out to you?

Andrea Wilson: Those were awesome. I had done the use cases training before that and the business process…I could pick…so, data modeling.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s a good one. Data modeling is always a good one.

Andrea Wilson: At the time, we were working on a project where there had to be some changes where the data was going to live and how the process worked. That was a good one to do. It was strenuous in that it caused a lot of thinking, but it also was helpful in that it caused all that thinking. As you build, you start to ask all these questions. The more questions you ask, the more answers you can get. You’ll find that there are yet more questions that you did not think of. That was, I think, where I learned the most as a BA, and knowing that I did not have to be a technical person. I don’t have to dig into it that way. That was a very good experience for me.

Laura Brandenburg: You mentioned you did have a bit of a technical background.

Andrea Wilson: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: This was still a new area.

Andrea Wilson: What’s funny is, and I remember asking this through the process when I submitted one of the assignments. We moved into the next step and we had a webinar. You start talking about how to…we were drawing relationships between these different things. I started asking pretty technical questions and quickly my response back was, “Oh wait, yes, that’s where we’re going but we’re not there yet.” I needed to back down a little bit.

The learning point for me there was in having conversations with stakeholders to not go there and to this very technical jargon that you don’t have to. It’s great when some of them understand it, but sometimes, you don’t need to. You can let these things out in front of them and have these discussions and you don’t have to have these tech terms to have these discussions with them. You can translate when you get back to your IT team. That was a big takeaway for me during that module.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, that’s awesome. I want to talk a little bit more about the CIO piece, too, because I know the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA) was a big piece. You said you were part of The Blueprint before we offered the ACBA and now have earned your ACBA with the final piece of that. What went into your mind about wanting the certification and then also just sharing the certification. Some people get nervous. Were you nervous about sharing it or were you excited to share it? Obviously, you had a great result. Can you talk a little bit about that part of your process in your journey?

Andrea Wilson: Obviously, we’re in COVID times and I have been working remotely. You lose a little bit of that water cooler time where you share what you’ve got going on daily or what’s happening or what your new goal is. When I made the decision to do the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA), it was pretty abrupt because I had said, “I can’t do this right now. I really can’t afford this right now.” You and I shared a few emails because you’ve had such a personal touch all along. There was something you had said that made me just rethink this and just take the plunge.

So, I did this in my off-hours and through the holidays and I got finished. I had this nervousness about sharing it because I had not talked to anybody about it. I had not had that discussion, other than you, but not with any of my coworkers, but I was also very excited because, to me, having done The Blueprint, it would have been great to have had that as an outcome. I did that while I was at work and in the office and it was like, “Yay, I finished this.” I’ve got a certificate. Certificates are good but having something that documents that you have applied what you learned is very different than getting a certificate of completion. So, it’s kind of a no-brainer at that point to share it. I felt good about what I had done and now I had something to show that I applied it. I applied it successfully.

It was one evening after the workday was over, dinner was on the table, and I sat down, I said, okay, I have not shared this. I need to jump on LinkedIn and make an update. I have done something that is worthy of celebrating and I just recall hearing that in some of the webinars that we had during the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA). Let’s share your successes. And what can come back from sharing your successes, or what it can do for other people.

I did that quick share and the next day, I was not looking for responses, I just got a notification that I had a response. When I opened it and saw who it was from, I thought, wow. Just what we were expecting, there are people out there who you don’t know are looking, who you don’t expect to be paying attention, who may see exactly what you’re doing.

When I got that from him, I thought, “Oh wow. Okay.” There’s confirmation that sharing this was a good idea. Then, a couple of days later, again, yet from my immediate supervisor who I had not discussed this with because I was doing it on my own, saying, “Hey, I see you. Good job.” I thought. Okay. When we return back to the office, I’m sure that will be a topic of conversation. I’ll have my badge up. I’m looking to see what’s next. I’ve seen all this growth through this process going through all of these things and then topping it off with the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA). I’m like, “Okay, so what’s next for me?”

I’m sure that there will be something. There may be something in the works. Who knows? I’m looking forward to it.

Laura Brandenburg: What do you see as next?

Andrea Wilson: I don’t know. I feel a lot of confidence right now. The funny thing is after, and I didn’t think about this a minute ago; after I shared that, I had two recruiters touch base with me and say, “Are you interested in looking at something?” I have not responded to those yet other than to say, “I’m open to conversation,” just to see what they’ll say. I’m happy in a full-time position, but you never know. I might be able to point somebody else in that direction. But I feel a confidence now that I did not have before. So, I’ve had these steps in my confidence level, and it just keeps rising.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. One last question for you, if you had not chosen to invest in The Blueprint, where do you think you might be today?

Andrea Wilson: Oh, wow. I don’t know. I would hope that I would have done something, but I’m not sure that it would have produced the fruit that I received through The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you. Your story is absolutely incredible. I appreciate that we have been part of that journey, but also want to just celebrate all that you did on the journey because you did the work, you applied what you’ve learned, you shared it. That is a big part of the effort too. They go together. We give you the tools, but you leverage the tools and you put them out there and you applied them on a day-to-day basis and were doing the work. That is huge and my hat is off to you, too.

Any last words before we close, Andrea. Anything you want to share?

Andrea Wilson: I just want to say thank you for what you’re doing because I feel like I’ve been here while Bridging the Gap is growing up too. There have been so many new things implemented since I started and I see what you all are doing. I see the team growing, which means you’re having some success. I feel success from your success. I want to say thank you for what you’re doing to the business analysis community.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you for that. It’s been an exciting time to help people like you. Thank you so much.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

You’ll create validated work samples and be a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

I’m so grateful to Eno Eka for sharing her personal story to finding a BA job just 2 weeks after arriving in Canada.

But while we set out to talk about immigrating, this video became so much more. It’s really about the mindsets and strategies you need to make any sort of progression in your career, and how to accelerate that path for yourself.

Listen in and you’ll discover:

• How Eno transitioned from accounting to business analysis.
• How Eno found her first BA job (a lateral move) in Canada just 2 weeks after relocating (and even after her personal luggage didn’t make it to Canada).
• The strategies Eno employed to be well-connected professionally and well-qualified for BA jobs in Canada, even before she moved.
• How Eno thinks about the ROI on the investments she makes in herself, and how she made those investments while earning a Nigerian salary.
• The accelerated business analyst career path she’s created for herself, and what mindsets were essential to make those happen.

Connect with Eno Eka on LinkedIn

Visit Eno Eka’s website

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome. This is Laura Brandenburg here today with Eno Eka. We’re going to talk about immigrating to a new country. I am super excited to hear your story as well as have a resource. We were chatting a bit about we get questions about this at Bridging the Gap all the time, or people who are in this transition and maybe are a part of our programs, or considering what investments they need to make in their career to take the next step. I’ve never really felt that I had a good answer. It’s not something that I’ve been through personally or helped somebody through. And so, I’m really excited to learn more about your story as well as be able to share some really good strategies with others. So, thank you for being here, and welcome.

Eno Eka: Thank you for having me, Laura. It’s a pleasure to be here to share my experience and sort of encourage people. Thank you for doing this for your audience as well knowing that there are a lot of people who are immigrating, people who are also trying to make that transition.

It’s two topics at the same time – making that transition to BA is not easy, and then moving countries as well. So, I’m happy to share my experience and help anyone who is experiencing this or who’s about to start this journey as well.

Laura Brandenburg: I was going to actually ask two questions, but why don’t we just share. Start with a little bit about your journey. What prompted you to immigrate? What was the process like? Were you a business analyst before or did you make both transitions at once into business analysis and into a new country? Which, you’re right, is like two big transitions altogether.

Eno Eka: It is two big transitions. So, I didn’t start out as a business analyst. The truth is, like, hardly anyone I find that in their past life started as a business analyst. I started my career as an accountant. I actually studied accounting. I have a Bachelor’s in accounting, and I was working in accounting. But when I got into this organization, I was working in the project management office and doing typical project accounting and the spreadsheets. And then I got more into project controlling, the finance part of things, and I kind of found what the project managers did was really interesting.

I noticed an opportunity for a spot to assist in the project as a project assistant, so I started with project management and then took a project management course and actually found that interesting. After doing that for a while, I was speaking to a friend of mine. I’m like, “Oh, I think I enjoy this, working on projects more than doing the typical bookkeeping and finance stuff.” And he’s like, “Well, you actually, really should be a business analyst. You have the core standard business analyst skills.” I’m like, “What’s a business analyst? What’s that? What do they do?” And I go start researching and looking up blogs and on YouTube and whatever trying to get more insight towards business analysis.

When I got it, I’m like, “Wow, so this is really what I do. These are the things that I do.” Leveraging the skills I already have, like my communication skills, my personal skills, my domain knowledge. I was like, okay, I think I’ll be a better business analyst than project manager. That’s how I made that transition into business analysis. Taking courses, getting my certification, my CBAP certification, and getting opportunities that put me directly into tech projects. I just found myself working on tech projects, software projects, and before you knew it, I had moved from accounting into tech, just like that.

For anyone whose listening, you want to make that transfer into business analysis, understand that nobody woke up one day and said, “Oh, I want to be a business analyst.” It just happens. But the truth is, whatever you studied, whatever you’re doing right now, it’s still part of the foundation and it’s going to help you in your career because you definitely have transferable skills. That’s really how it started for me.

And then, a few years after, I came to Canada. So, I made that transition because now first, and then I moved to Canada. And then it was a different terrain, different country. As an immigrant learning the culture, learning about the way things are done, organizational processes, everything is different. So, grabbing all that knowledge, learning from people, people’s experiences, getting people to mentor and coach me along the way. Those were two big transitions, but is it possible? Definitely. Yes, it is possible.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. What was that process? I just want to affirm when you say, “Oh,” it’s just like, you don’t, necessarily, say, “I’m going to be a business analyst today,” and it just sort of happens. I see this. That was my experience, too. I started doing the role before I was in the role. And it’s something when I first interview people for my book, How to Start a Business Analyst Career. I thought that was just my experience and that I was the weird one. And then it was like the story that I heard most often of how this career change happened.

Eno Eka: It is.

Laura Brandenburg: We often advise people to just start doing some business analysis and kind of get that train going and often, all of a sudden, those opportunities snowball.

Eno Eka: That’s true.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. Now, but in terms of moving to Canada, what was that process like?

Eno Eka: Well, moving to Canada, I came to Canada through the, it’s called the Federal Skills Program, Express Entry. So, this program is for people who already have work experience, you already have higher education. At least a bachelor’s or a diploma or a master’s degree. You speak good English because you have to do an English test. They also rank you based on your age. So, those were the criteria that you had to pass through to get your educational certificate evaluated to be sure it meets the Canadian standards, and also take an English test.

Once you do that, you apply and then once you’re selected, you now have to go on to do some other tests, like do a medical test, getting a police record to be showing you have no criminal record, and ensuring you have enough funds to support yourself because, of course, they don’t want anybody who’s going to come and be a liability to the government. So, ensure you have enough funds to support yourself, and then providing documentation to show you actually went to school and to show that you’ve been working for at least more than three years.

I had to go through that process of the application. Once I got my visa, then it was time for me to move and to relocate. You, basically, just have to book your ticket and arrive and plan your arrival. But the good thing was, and the smart thing I did was before I arrived, I started researching about business analyst roles in Canada, what employers were looking out for, and this is something I tell a lot of people. Once you know you’ve got your visa, or you’re about to get your visa, start preparing ahead. There’s really nothing like getting everything you need.

I noticed the kind of certifications the employers were looking out for. The CBAP certification, which I already had. Learning more about agility, agile and SCRUM, learning more about the tools that were being used. Basically, looking at the job descriptions and seeing what employers were asking for and then looking at the gaps and seeing how I could close those gaps.

I started taking online courses and improving myself because I wanted to make sure that I was employable when I arrived in Canada. Because it’s one thing to arrive, it’s another thing to be employable because sometimes what you’ve been doing in your home country may be totally different process.

And then joining professional organizations, the IIBA, the Calgary Chapter was valuable for me. So, I tell people look out for professional organizations as well, or if you’re sort of a domain subject matter expert, you’ve been working in domains for a while, there’s definitely some professional organizations you can join that could support you, go for your meetings, network with people, ask questions, if there are certifications that you can take.

I took a certification course as well in financial services just because I had some experience in financial services and I wanted to make sure that I just had everything to give me an edge.

Doing all those things kind of helped to set me apart and kind of help me get started early in my journey. So, in about two weeks of arriving, I got a job. And how did you do it? I’m like, “Well, I’ve just been preparing for so long and networking with people and basically putting in the work.”

Laura Brandenburg: Before you actually moved.

Eno Eka: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Part of those chapters, part of those associations, networking, talking to people before you moved.

Eno Eka: Exactly. And improving myself, too. Because I wanted to make sure that I was a good fit for the Canada work environment. So, understanding the culture, how to, small talk is a big deal here, so you want to make sure you know how to do all the small talk. That wasn’t a challenge for me, but really, just learning more about the culture, understanding how my resume should be structured, the kind of things that should be seen in my resume because what we use back in Nigeria is the CV, which is what is used in England, or colonized by Britain anyway. We kind of follow a lot of British ways of doing things. So, we use the CV.

But what’s used here is the resume, so understanding how to have the Canadian standard resume, using LinkedIn to network with people, taking advantage of associations here. There’s a lot of networking events, and just getting to know people in my local community and telling them, “Hey, I’m new to Canada. I’m a business analyst. These are the things I’ve done. If there’s anything in your purview, I’m happy to chat about it.” That kind of thing, it was valuable for me in my early days, even though I still had my own struggles.

Like when I arrived in Canada, I lost my bags and I had to, yeah; I lost my bags when I arrived in Canada. But because I sort of prepared my mind, I wasn’t exactly scared for the future, like, what’s going to happen. Am I going to get a job? I knew that I would be fine because I’d arrived prepared and I knew that. I had everything that any employer would want and that’s why I remember the interview that got my first job, I got an offer on the spot. So, yeah, it’s possible.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I keep going back to you are in a new country. You lost your bags permanently or did you ever get those?

Eno Eka: I never got my bags back.

Laura Brandenburg: Oh, my goodness. Like everything you brought with you?

Eno Eka: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Wow.

Eno Eka: Except for things I had in my hand luggage, but everything that I checked in, yeah. Lost on my connecting flight into Canada. Yeah. I mean it was tough. The early days were not the sweetest days. As a new immigrant, you have to get used to the community. Getting lost. Not knowing the trains and buses and how to make sure you’re working with the times. Not having any family here and, basically, just walking through learning things myself and through the people that I met here as well.

I met amazing people who helped me as well, but it’s really about a lot of mindset work. A lot of mindset work has to be done.

Laura Brandenburg: You talked about that. What were some of the important mindsets?

Eno Eka: Oh, for sure. One thing that I tell people, first of all, is that know that you already have what it takes. You have the experience already. Whether you work outside of North America, it doesn’t matter. But you already have experience. Leverage your experience. It’s really how you communicate your experience to your employer or your potential employer on your resume, your Linked In profile, during your interview. Have the mindset of, “I have what it takes.” “I have the skills required for this job. I can provide value.”

Whenever you’re speaking to people, speak from a place of value. That’s something I had to learn as well. Because in my first interview, I knew I didn’t do so well in that interview. I could have really done better, but because interviews are done differently back home compared to here. Here, it’s a lot of behavioral interview questions. Getting to know more about your competences less than the technical skills that back home, it was more about those technical skills and you would have to do like a little test to actually prove yourself.

But here, it’s really different. Knowing how to actually communicate the value was really, really key for me. What I tell other people is that you already have the experience. You just need to know how to communicate it and meet the employer where they’re at and think, “I’m here. I can help you. This is what I’ve done in the past. These are my skills. These are my experiences. These are my accomplishments as well.” And then educating them about where you come from and the projects you’ve worked on.

Whenever I go into an interview, I always humor my interviewers. I tell them about my challenges or my projects, the kind of projects I’ve worked on, and they will be like, “Wow, that’s amazing.” I’m like, “Yeah, you should come to Nigeria. This is how it’s done here. It’s different.” Educate them on your culture. Educate them on the processes that you use back home, and I know that for a lot of systems it may be different. But the truth is, at the end of the day, it still does the same thing. Even though you use a different financial system, right, so I worked in a bank for a bit and our banking software was different. However, the banking software still does the same thing on the front end and the back end. So, you should be able to explain to the employer, “This is the banking system I worked on and I implemented. This is the front end and the back end is what it does. However, I’m very sure it is similar to what your banking system does.” And then explain to them, meet them where they are, and then they see the value in you.

These are the things that I tell people. Don’t think that all…I have tons of experience and move countries, now I have to get an entry-level job. I don’t think so. I don’t think you have to do that. Look at the gaps. Find how to close those gaps and then communicate your value in a way where you meet the employer where they are.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. And I was going to ask if you made a lateral move when you came to Canada, or even a step up.

Eno Eka: No, it was a lateral move. It was a lateral move at first and then, of course, more opportunities started coming my way.

Laura Brandenburg: And I love what you said because what you’re really talking about there is believing in yourself. Even people that I help with career transition that aren’t going through the challenges moving to a new country, that is still something that affects us a lot, I think, as an analytical profession is that analytical mindset can turn and become very critical. Find all the reasons that you can’t do that thing vs. all the reasons you can. It’s so critical.

Eno Eka: Right. I know. We like to analyze everything and be like, “Oh, well, I can’t do this role because they ask for this tool and I don’t have the experience using this tool.” Well, I’m like, “But you use this other tool. Tell me more about it. And be saying what he does and I’m like, “It does the same thing, it’s just called different names.” So, why don’t you go in there and explain that to them and tell them, “I’ve used this project management tool. This is what it does. And I know you use this here in your organization. And because I have experience doing this, I am 100% sure that in no time I will no my way around it. I’ll definitely play around with it and I’ll get used to it.”

So, it’s all about that belief. That’s why when I got the success that I did and just growing rapidly in my career. A lot of people are reaching out to me saying, “How were you able to do this?” “How were you able to start a career in business analysis?” Or, “I was a business analyst back home, or I was a project manager back home, but when I arrived to Canada, I was told I had to start from the bottom, like, you know, go get an admin job. That kind of thing.” I’m like, “No, I don’t think you should because your experience is still valid.”

I asked them questions. I’m like, “Okay. Tell me about the projects you’ve worked on.” And then when they tell me about the projects they’ve worked on, I’m saying, “Wow. You definitely have something to offer. You just need to actually put up your hands and step up to it. Use your Linked In profile. Optimize it. Create a good resume and apply for these roles.” Don’t think that because, “Oh, I don’t have experience working in Canada or in the U.S., then, I can’t get that job.” It’s a lot about the belief and the mindset and that’s very key as to what I also teach people because I find, like, that’s a lot of the work. It’s less about learning how to write a business case and a BRD and create use cases. Those things are what you will still need to do as a business analyst. But the belief in, “I can actually do this,” to make that transition, it really starts from the mind.

Laura Brandenburg: The other thing that I, the pattern I noticed just from you sharing your stories, you also made a lot of investments in yourself in training and time in terms of networking. This is not just like a whimsical change. There must have been some real deep sense of “Why?” behind it, too.

Eno Eka: Oh yeah. I tell people, I say, you want to continuously improve yourself. You can’t remain the way you are. I’m not the way I was last year or two years ago, five years ago. You have to continuously improve yourself, especially if you want to become a business analyst. It’s a very dynamic career path. You can’t just say, “Oh, I mean I took a business analyst course back in 2010. I’m good. You have to continue to improve yourself. That’s what I did. I continuously invested in myself and I still do to increase my value. Because as you increase your value, you increase your earnings.

As we see, Laura, with people who take the business analysis courses and they get like a $20,000 salary increase. It’s amazing. Just because they increased their value by investing in themselves by taking the business analysis course. And really, that’s what it is. I invest in myself taking courses, certifications, getting coaches to help me. That’s what I tell people. I say, when you’re working with a coach, you’re basically saying, “Here, I want you to invest yourself in me as well. I’m investing in you, so you can invest in me. And you always see the return on your investment.” I have. Seeing lots of return on my investments.

I remember when I was going to get my CBAP certification. A lot of people told me, “Why do you want to get the CBAP. It’s not a popular certification.” It wasn’t for a long time. “What is this business analysis thing? It’s expensive. Why don’t you just go, you’re an accountant, get your ACC and become a CPA or a CGA? That’s a better career path for you. Everybody knows what a CPA does. You can get a job as an accountant or a financial analyst.” I don’t want to do that. I want to be a business analyst.

Then, in my journey, I had to travel to Ghana, to another country, to write the CBAP exam. Had to pay for courses. My flights. A lot of investments into getting my CBAP certification years ago. But today and tomorrow, I’ll still reap the benefits of being the CBAP. I’ll still reap the benefits of taking courses, having coaches to guide me in this career path. So, investing in yourself is so key.

If you’re listening to this, there is nothing better than having someone to coach and guide you because you won’t make the same mistakes. You have someone to ask questions, get clarification so you don’t make the same mistakes that they made, and then, also, you’re able to make the right decision.

Something I find, a lot of people don’t have is sometimes a lot of people feel, “Oh, I can self-study, get my certifications, or learn things on YouTube, or free courses, which is true, but there comes a time in your career that you need to make some strategic decisions. When you have an interview, you need to know how to negotiate your salary. You need to know how to communicate your value. All those things are things that you learn from other people and with practice, you get better at that.

I was speaking to someone recently who was able to negotiate his salary and get a higher offer. After the first offer, the company gave him, and that’s because I shared some tips with him saying, you know, the fact that you have experience, you’ve gotten some certifications, leverage that and communicate your value to this organization and see if they give you an offer. He was scared at first, because he was like, “This is my first job.” I’m like,  “Negotiate.” So, having someone to guide you through this process is so key.

In my early days, people were like, “Oh, I want you to help me.” Blah, blah, blah. I’m like, “I’m really super busy.” Like I have a lot of work. “I will pay you to coach me.” I’m like, “Wow. Okay. I will listen to you now.” But it’s been amazing; helping people get their first jobs as business analysts without any prior Canadian experience or anything like that. Really leveraging the experience and the skills that they have. And the truth is, a lot of people have this.

When people say, “Oh, I don’t know if BA is for me.” And then I tell them, “Okay, go to YouTube. Watch these videos on YouTube. Read these blogs.” I send them your blogs; I send them your videos. I tell them, “Okay, buy this book on How to Start a BA Career.” Stuff like that. And then they come back and say, “Wow. I’ve been doing this for so many years.” I’m like, “Yes, you have. So, why don’t you consider starting a career and letting all the tools and techniques that you need and learning how to,” I actually practice this now, a day in the life of a BA, basically. Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and there’s just one thread I want to tie together and maybe this is a bit of my experience. I’d be interested if it’s yours too. But you talked about owning your worth, and then we talked about investing in yourself.

Eno Eka: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: They go hand-in-hand, and I’ve made some really significant investments in my professional life, in my personal development. And I feel like I’m always the different person just on the other side of that transaction. Just when I was like, “Oh, run it on my credit card,” before I start seeing the value. Because it changes you. You’re like, “I’m worth it.” It’s a commitment, too. And the reason you get the ROI is because when you make that investment, you’re committing to yourself that you’re going to that next level.

Eno Eka: And even people who have businesses. You have Clear Springs Business Analysis is your business. I also have my business. But I find when I invest in myself as the leader of the business, and as the principal owner of that business, the business, in itself, also gets to prosper, it gets to blossom and bloom because I’m working on myself, too. I don’t know how it happens. I don’t know if you’ve seen that as well, but as we invest in yourself, too, and you’re learning more, and that’s something a lot of people don’t know. They would see you. I’d say, “Oh, Laura, she’s been doing business analysis for so long. She’s great at this. She eats, sleeps, breathes business analysis.”

There you are. You invest in yourself, too, because you want to become better of yourself every day and it’s clear. It shows in your business. It shows in how you have grown as well. That applies to everyone. So, don’t ever feel like, “I’ve got this. I took a course years ago and I’m good.” You need to continuously invest in yourself and improve yourself. There’s a lot to learn when it comes to business analysis. There’s so much. It’s so broad. You can’t think, “I’m the guru and I know all the perspectives. I can work as anything.” No, that’s not true. You want to make sure that you know where your strengths are and leverage your strengths.

That’s also something I tell people. Leverage your strength. If you have experience in a domain, you have experience in a technology or a software, whatever it is, leverage that and get into business analysis. I know that’s one of the things you talk about in your blog post about how to start a career in business analysis with no experience. You talk about the fact that if you have domain experience already, leverage that and then start doing business analysis work in your role.

Like I tell other people, if you’ve learned how to write a business case and you’re not a business analyst, try writing a business case for your project and send it to your manager. Try writing a BRD and send it to your manager and say, “Hey, I’m learning some new things and I thought I’d just share with you some deliverables, some documents I’m creating.” That also helps to build your confidence, and that also helps to give you that exposure you need in the organization.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. This might be a…I didn’t prep this question for you. But when we’re talking about investments, because I get, literally, I get caught here as a business owner. Coming from Nigeria where the currency is so different and then moving to Canada, can you share, how did the financial aspect of being able to make the investments in where you were going? Are you okay sharing kind of what, like the mindset around that or the logistics around that? How did that even…how is that even possible?

Eno Eka: I know. So, working in Nigeria, it is Naira, which is way lower than U.S. dollars where I have to pay for the courses or my certifications, but a lot of that stuff. I mean it was a lot, but I was working. But the thing is I’m very conscious about investments and investing in myself. I’ve always known that the best investment was in me, that any other material thing because as I invest in myself, I know my knowledge, especially, it will reflect in everything around me.

I get very frugal when it comes to saving. I save and I have a budget. It’s something I tell a lot of people. Have a budget, an annual budget, that you set aside for personal development. Now, it doesn’t have to be training or certification. It could even just be personal development for yourself. So, taking a course in practical skills – communication skills or speaking skills, whatever it is, but have a budget that you set aside for education for your personal development. That’s something that I was constantly doing. I was setting money aside every month from my salary for my goals. I knew I needed over $1,000 to get my certifications or take a course, or whatever I would set that goal and contribute towards that fund for my education, for my development.

Even though I wasn’t earning the best of salaries, I made sure that I was able to make that savings and invest in myself. No matter how much you earn – a lot of people say, “Well, I don’t earn so much.” Well, no matter how much it is, just set a goal. Have a budget and put funds aside for your personal development. There is nothing better than that.

Now, I’m not saying you shouldn’t go on vacations or buy a nice car or all those things that you like, but the truth is you have to weigh things and look at the scale and see if I invest in myself, say, $1,000 in myself today, or $2,000 in myself today, and this investment in the next six months or three months would yield me another job where I get a $20,000 salary increase, what’s the return on the investment? From $2,000 to $20,000. Look at that and say, “Is it worth it?” And if the answer is yes, then, go for it.

I don’t second guess myself when it comes to personal development. I’m always like, “Take my card.” That’s really how I am when it comes to personal development. And even when I arrived in Canada, I wasn’t earning so much. But my first year in Canada, I spent over about $15,000 in personal development, but that has made me a better person. That has made me different. That has really set me apart from a lot of people and things that I do as a consultant, as a business analyst because I’m paying people to learn from them and also to be a better person as well.

No matter where you are, no matter how little you earn, save for a personal development. Trust me. It will be worth it in the end. I can tell you.

Laura Brandenburg: And you kind of alluded to this, that you made this lateral move, but then there have been several jumps.

Eno Eka: Oh yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Before we kind of let people know how to hear more about you, do you want to just kind of give us the snapshot view of what some of those jumps have been?

Eno Eka: Oh yeah. From accountant to working in the project management office, and then business analyst, business analyst into working as a proxy, product owner working as a proxy SCRUM Master learning about agility, and then working as a senior business analyst, or a business analysis specialist is where I found myself now just making that move. And then working as a consultant and teaching business analysis as well are things that I found myself doing.

Sometimes I look back and I’m like, “Wow, is this really me?” Because I still remember the early days when I look at the bubble, I’m like, “What is this?” “Where is all this from?”

Laura Brandenburg: When that came out and that was the reaction. It’s like “Wait.”

Eno Eka: You know, I tell some people I’m like, “I wrote BABOK. I wrote the older version. The older version was not fun. This version is way better. The older version. That was not fun. That was so technical. Sometimes I was like, “Oh my God. What is this?”

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. If people want to work with you or just learn more about what you have to offer, where would they go to learn more?

Eno Eka: So, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. I’m very active on LinkedIn. Eno Eka is my name. My website is www.enoeka.com. You could also reach out to me on, I have YouTube, but I’m not exactly. But you can search me on YouTube. I have some videos on YouTube, but I’m really more active on Linked In. I’ve found that’s a great space for me to interact with other professionals. Linked In is really my sweet spot. So, search for me, Eno Eka. And then my website is www.enoeka.com.

I’m passionate about business analysis. I love business analysis. I teach business analysis. I like to share my story and encourage other people to start a business analysis career. So, as you heard me share, I used to be an accountant and now I work as a business analyst, and I work in the tech space. So, trust me, you can do it too. I had never written a line of code in my life before. I don’t intend to ever write code. I don’t like those black screens. But I love helping organizations, I love recommending solutions, and I see myself as a problem solver. I’m a solution provider. That’s how I see myself. And I teach people how to do the same using their experiences and their skills that are transferable to start a career in business analysis.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. And I will say, I love being connected with you on Linked In because you do share, like, inspirational posts, but they’re also…and I do a lot of mindset work, but I often, like it’s like, “Oh, right.” There are a lot of good reframes and keeping everybody on track. I really appreciate that about you.

Eno Eka: Laura, in the early stages of my BA career, I don’t know if you had this, but I struggled with imposter syndrome because there were people who had computer science degrees. They’ve been in the technical space for so long, there were so many jargons they used to speak, and I’m like “What?” I would be like, oh, I’m the youngest here. I’m the newbie here. How can I prove myself? I used to be scared to go into those meetings. It was a struggle for me, but I used to tell myself, there’s a reason why you’re here. You can provide value. Do your research. Learn more about this technology. Ask questions. Understand that you’re still valuable, whatever you have to offer. Leverage your strengths. Knowing what your strengths are.

I knew early in my career what my strengths were and how I could leverage my strength. I really knew how to manage my stakeholders. I knew how to communicate, and I was really great at my documentation. And I made sure that my powers, I leveraged those powers. And then working with the team members who had technical to help me, my documentation as well. I knew those were things you learned as you grew your career. I knew those feelings of fear when you see those job descriptions, when you get into those meetings. Trust me, you’ll be fine.

Laura Brandenburg: I love that. Thank you so, so much. If you want to learn more about me, you can find me at BridgingtheGap.com. And if you want to learn more about Eno, you can find her at enoeka.com. Thank you so much for being here.

Eno Eka: Thank you so much. Bye.

You are going to want to tune in to discover how Jami:

• Transitioned from Administrative Assistant to Business Analyst by shadowing BAs, volunteering for stretch assignments, and finding a career sponsor.
• Moved to a new company in a business analyst role, and then was quickly assigned to a significant strategic program to analyze every aspect of the customer experience globally.
• Choose to invest in The Business Analyst Blueprint® after several 1-2 day trainings, to learn more in-depth about a structured, industry-standard business analysis approach.
• Wrote her first use case to show how a certain Salesforce function could be used to accomplish a business objective, receiving the response of “I’ve never ever seen it done this way and this is fantastic.”
• Worked through her perfectionist tendencies and chose to embrace feedback from the instructor team, as a part of her continual learning and personal growth.

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome to Bridging the Gap. I’m here today with Jami Moore, who is from Clinton, Massachusetts. Hey Jami.

Jami Moore: Hello.

Laura Brandenburg: Hey. So excited to have you here. You are working on some really fantastic projects. We were just talking as we got started, like, a bigger than any ERP project. And also, just recently participated in our session of The Business Analyst Blueprint®. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that and any exciting things that you’re doing in your career.

Jami Moore: Awesome.

Laura Brandenburg: If you can kind of just take us back to where you were. Before you started The Blueprint, I know, we’ve talked a little bit, you were doing business analysis for a while. If you can share how you got into it and where you were in your career before you started the program would be great.

Jami Moore: Sure. Maybe I should go a little bit further back than that. Back in 2013, I decided, as an administrative assistant, that I wanted to be a business analyst, something that people had said to me frequently that I was but had no real understanding of what that was. When I made that determination that I wanted to do it, I was working for a medical device company and worked for two years to actually prove that I could do the business analyst role and do the work.

I was offered a great opportunity to move over to our IT group as a business analyst, introductory business analyst, for six months while I prove that I could actually do the work of a BA. Spent about three years there working as a Salesforce Business Analyst. Very highly focused on that, but also doing some smaller projects as well outside of just being that.

Last September, I actually moved to a new company, still within the medical device realm, but more focused on diabetes. It’s an insulin pump company. As part of that, got promoted to a senior BA role. My focus really was around helping to solution and manage all of our technology for our customers, from a customer portal perspective. We called that our customer experience technology group, which I am still a part of, which I love.

As part of that, had decided that I also wanted to take some additional training. I had been taking business analyst training for quite a while, but wanted a more structured and extended training because most of what I was doing was one or two day trainings, just to kind of get myself familiar with some of the skillsets that a BA needs. I talked with my boss and said, “Listen, whether you pay for this or not, I’m doing this.” Got him and his manager, who is the vice president, on board to actually pay for it.

Just as I signed up for The Blueprint, got the opportunity to go over to a very large program within the company as part of the strategic initiative to help re-imagine our entire customer experience.

What that means is looking at all of our customer interactions, not only from when they are an actual customer, but starting from the point of they’re not just yet a customer, they are considered, potentially a lead, all the way through to them making it into our customer funnel, and further on into our product support funnels as well. It’s very big. It’s very expansive. It is global. We are not doing this just for the U.S., but we’re doing it for everyone around the world as part of that program. Took that and ran with it a while in The Blueprint.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. I mean that just sounds like such a phenomenal project. It’s not even a project. It’s a program that must have multiple projects within it. What does your day-to-day look like when you’re working on something that huge?

Jami Moore: Lots and lots and lots and lots of meetings. We typically start, for the U.S. team, we’re typically starting our day right around, between 7:00 a.m. and 8:00 a.m. on east coast time meeting with our global process owners and various business stakeholders and technical teams to talk through, in this first phase, we’re calling it our discovery phase, to really talk through our business processes and map those all out at a high level so that we can understand where we’re going to need to dive much deeper, understand where the gaps are and at the same time, for the technical BAs that are on our team, also doing research around potential solutions for capabilities that are being identified during those process mapping sessions, as well as putting together demos of those potential solutions.

A lot of my time was spent pulling together Salesforce demos because that’s what I focus on. I got to get my hands dirty in technology in doing coding and configuration, which was really very interesting for me. But that’s a lot of my time is just talking with business partners, doing a lot of research, understanding the different technologies that are out there so that I can answer questions as they come up.

Laura Brandenburg: Still a fair amount of detailed work, but you’re doing that detailed work to really facilitate really big picture decision-making, it sounds like?

Jami Moore: Yes, absolutely.

Laura Brandenburg: This is still in its pretty initial phases, right? You said you just started this at the beginning of the year?

Jami Moore: Yeah, so we have actually just wrapped up our discovery phase. We’ll be going into a more detailed requirements phase to really understand whether or not what we’ve pre-identified as some potential solutions and applications integrations are going to really meet the need for our business partners and our customers because we are, unlike a lot of medical device companies, we interact with our customers 1:1. A lot of med device companies, their customers are more of hospitals and doctors and physicians. We are interacting with individual people who are working to get our product in their hands. It’s lifesaving technology for them because diabetics, they need insulin every single day. It’s a non-negotiable for them. And, so, we have a different focus on what we need to build and how functional and easy it needs to be for our end users to actually use all of our stuff and interact with us.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. So, it’s really like a B to C, like a business to consumer.

Jami Moore: Yes. Exactly. We have a huge B to C model, but we still do B to B as well, so that business to business, we do that as well. It’s just a much smaller subset.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s fascinating. I feel like we could talk about that for ages. But I also wanted, you mentioned, “I’m doing The Blueprint, whether my boss pays.” What was prompting you at that point in your career to say this is the time to do something like this?

Jami Moore: I had been looking at The Blueprint for several years wanting to do it. In my previous company and role, while we did have training, there was not a lot of structure for the business analyst group. There was a lot of structure and a lot of planning for our project managers, but when it came to the BA group, we were always stumbling along trying to figure out the best ways to do things, the best techniques to use. They were a company that is highly regulated by the FDA, as most companies are. And so, a lot of their documentation was based around validating systems.

But it wasn’t BA friendly. It was really driven more from a project management standpoint, and I really wanted to understand how we could not only drive the right pieces of work that we were doing, but also make sure that the documentation aligned with that so that we could speed up all of our projects as we were talking with all of our business partners.

And so, with that, I just said, “Okay. I need to understand, from a more structured and industry-standard methodology, how do we do this, especially given that I am very much a proponent of IIBA and want to get certified. I wanted to make sure that I could start to align my skillset and the things that I knew to prepare me to do that certification.

Laura Brandenburg: That makes a lot of sense. What was your experience with the program like?

Jami Moore: I loved it. I was actually just talking to someone else this morning and highly recommended it. It was a great program in that it definitely challenges you. I enjoy having that challenge and getting pushed to not take the easy path.

Even in moments where I was just really frustrated. In some ways, I’m a bit of a perfectionist, so when I’m working on something, I really want it to be right at the first pass, rock-solid and ready to go. And, so, having people who are other BAs in the industry really take a look at what I was working on, helping me to understand those skillsets, and the pieces that I needed and really kind of looking at it through a finer lens to help me get better was just phenomenal.

I am such a proponent of, “Hey, take this training. If you’re struggling to understand how the pieces fit together, take this training,” because it really helps solidify how I can move my entire project and other pieces along that path to make sure that we’re doing the right things or getting the right requirements and can help our business partner provide right solutions.

Laura Brandenburg: What’s an example? Can you share one of the examples from any one of the modules and how you applied it to this particular project?

Jami Moore: Sure. Absolutely. I’ll go with the use case scenario, actually. We were, during the program, identifying pieces of Salesforce that we would need. We are on an older version of Salesforce. And, so, we know that we’re going to be upgrading to the newest version. One of the things that we’ve struggled with a little bit is going to that business consumer model with outdated code that just doesn’t have that kind of flexibility for us.

One of the things we decided that we were going to use, or at least demo, to make decisions around whether we were going to use it or not was Salesforce’s person account, which really is built for that business to consumer model when you’re talking about accounts as a whole. And, so, in that, I was able to put together a use case that helped the business partners understand how we could build out a person account and all of the pieces that would need to happen from the user perspective…so a user does something, the system responds. The user does something else, the system responds, to help them understand the flow of even how standard operating pieces of Salesforce works, and had business partners going, “I’ve never ever seen it done this way and this is fantastic.”

It also helped me to build a presentation that I did to our architect team to help them get up to speed on person accounts, and subsequently, executives, at the higher IT levels to also understand why person accounts was the right business model for us to go with when we get to building the new environment.

Laura Brandenburg: Wow. You’re really able to validate that you had a solution approach that was going to work.

Jami Moore: Mm-hm.

Laura Brandenburg: Had you done use cases before?

Jami Moore: No, I had not. It was all new. And I had wanted to, and I tried to kind of learn it on my own, but it wasn’t making sense. And I think that’s really what it helped clarify was how to really make it work for somebody who really needs to dive a little bit deeper in the requirements than just a process flow.

Laura Brandenburg: What was the piece that helped you? You said you tried it before. Was it the training modules or the instructors? What was the piece of the program that helped you break through that gap?

Jami Moore: I would say it was definitely the module that was shared. Your videos that you shared to help walk us through.

I had tried reading various different blogs and tutorials around it and it just wasn’t really resonating with me on how I could use it and I think, for me, a lot of the use cases that come up are around things like banking models or student registrations, and we’re not a retail type of company. And so, I was struggling a lot because it just wasn’t resonating from a scenario perspective of how we could actually use it in those manners.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. Gotcha. That’s awesome. I know one of the things you mentioned was being a perfectionist and having to overcome some of the feedback. We talk about this internally about this part of the program. We would love to just send everything back. Do you have anything else to share about that, the actual process? I think some people who join are a little bit scared about the idea of receiving feedback. Feedback helps you grow, but it’s also something that we can kind of shy away from for various reasons.

Jami Moore: Yes. Absolutely. I would say it’s great because you guys take the time to really look through it, really try to understand it, reach out to us if there is a question, specifically, about something we did that it’s just not understanding. Very rare that that happens, but with the instructor hours, it really kind of helps us get through those pieces. And so I think that was very helpful, especially when the workbook would come back with comments around what specific questions they had or what specific pieces they felt didn’t exactly meet the criteria and give some guidance at the same time.

For me, I know I had to take a lot of deep breaths on those moments where I got my workbook back and it was like, “Congratulations. We reviewed your workbook. You have some work to do.” But just like you were mentioning, one of the things that I have always gone into with any of my bosses or anything that I’m doing is I always ask for feedback because I can’t grow if I don’t have that feedback, and I don’t know where I’m going wrong if I don’t have that feedback.

After the initial shock, and taking a deep breath, I would then take a moment, take some time, I should say, sit down and really read through the comments and understand where they were trying to get through. I think that’s the part that is hard for people when they’re just reading it in the moment where they haven’t really sat down or scheduled some time to really sit down and look through it. They’re just kind of, “Oh, I got my workbook back.” Okay.

I would advise, take some time; schedule 30 minutes and take some time and really read through it. Jot down your questions or your notes to spark what might be bothering you or what might be worrying you in what you did, and then take those to the instructor hour to talk through because that’ll help build not only your confidence in what you’re doing, but help you understand what people are going to expect from your business internally because they’re not going to know as much. If you can provide even more detail and catch yourself when they are giving you feedback, to take that moment. It helps communication. It helps team building. It helps all of it.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s great feedback on our “feedback.” Thank you. Thank you for all of that input on the program and your sharing your details with program. Back to you in your career, what do you see next for you? Obviously, you’re in the middle of a huge initiative, so you might not know. But I also hear a  bit of a planner.

Jami Moore: I am a planner. Speaking of planning, yes, I actually have a spreadsheet that I plan out all of my goals, not just career-wise, but personal goals for, I think this time around I did six years, and I need to back that down just a little bit. But typically, five, three to five years I do plans.

From a career perspective, I always knew that I want to go to the architect level, and that’s my next move. What I’m hoping is that as part of this program, and this is a multi-year program, it’s not just going to be a six-month or a year; this is a three to five-year program that we’re going to be investing in. That will help me get to that next level as I build my skill set, as I start to work through all of the different pieces. We have been talking about creating a Center of Excellence and having members of the program on that Center of Excellence.

My career path, I see my next step is at an architect level, or what we call a lead. Then, I’m not so sure after that.

Laura Brandenburg: Do you mean like technical architect or business architect? You want to go more technical?

Jami Moore: I would love to be a combination of both because I do tend to do a lot of technical, but I’m realizing more and more lately that I’m always watching out for the business more often than I am the technical pieces. And, so, I think I would love to do a combination of both where I am still and IT architect, but I am focused with the business to make sure that they’re getting the right solutions that they need.

Laura Brandenburg: That sounds awesome. I feel like you were going in another path before I clarified that.

Jami Moore: Well, you know, I think about things all the time and I’m always thinking about where do I want to go next. I know you and I have talked before about consulting. I have plans, future plans, that that might be kind of retirement thing where I can take that on and have a comfortable retirement. But I also don’t downplay anything. I’m always looking at opportunities. I’m always looking at what might be my next move and thinking through it and not saying “No” to anything or any opportunity that might come up, even in those moments where I really want to say, “No,” and have a lot of hesitation, but take a step back and look at it and figure out if it’s the right move for me or not.

Laura Brandenburg: And…for people looking to either move like you did from administrative assistant to business analysis – or – there are like two questions here. I always like to ask, “What would you advise to people following in your footsteps?” And I think we might have people listening who are like, “I’m an administrative assistant now and I want to move into BA.” And then we’ll have people listening who are like, “This is like the coolest project I’ve ever heard of.” What would you advise to get into that project?” Probably different steps. What would your advice to people looking to follow and achieve some of those goals that you have?

Jami Moore: Yeah, I’ll take the first one. For moving into a BA role as an admin, one of the first things that I did was look at what BA skills would I need and what skills matched what I was already doing. As an administrative assistant, I was actually doing a lot of event planning and project management, but I was recognizing that some of the side projects that I was doing within the company were much more BA focused talking to business stakeholders about requirements, about things that we were going to be doing, and even in those event planning meetings, utilizing that skillset to understand what we really needed. I went searching to figure out how to write my resume in a manner that would indicate, even as an admin, I was a BA. Stumbled on your website and really started to dive a little bit deeper.

I would say the things that really helped me to make that transition were accepting shadow opportunities. Shadowing a BA if I could. I actually signed up for a hack-a-thon that my company ran and signed up as a business analyst. Advice: make time with the IT people if that’s where you want to be because they’re typically the ones that run those and will pass on that information when it comes up.

And then the other thing is volunteer to do stretch assignments within the company. It is in addition to your regular job, so make sure that you are willing to take that on and understand that it can be a lot more work, and that you’re doing it for yourself. Because, really, you are. You’re doing this for yourself to make sure you can advance your career. And then have, not only a mentor, but the sponsor is really what helped me to make that transition.

My boss, at the time, was my sponsor and went and talked to the CIO of our IT group to make that offer to get me over there. You really need to have a mentor who’s going to help you with the skillsets that you need and help you grow, and you have somebody to bounce questions and ideas off of. But that sponsor is the person who is going to help you understand what your personal branding is and how you’re being perceived by others and make the necessary changes or shifts in your own personality at times to help you get to that next level and be the one who will be sitting in the meetings with management going, “Yeah, this name. We need to talk about this name here.”

Laura Brandenburg: Kind of helps pave the path for you as well.

Jami Moore: Absolutely.

Laura Brandenburg: And then how about taking on something like global customer experience program, a multi-year initiative?

Jami Moore: I would say some of the same things apply. If you can volunteer for a stretch assignment, absolutely do it. Definitely continue to have mentors and sponsors. And then express interest. Really express interest during those reviews you have with your boss about what you see as your career goals and your career path, and express interest that you want to be on bigger programs. Work with them to start to build out what your annual plan will look like to start to move you in that direction. Things you can work on throughout that year to start to get there.

I kind of lucked out with this one. We are a corporation, but we run more like a startup. And so, we have, at the time, we were kind of a smaller group. We didn’t have a lot of resources. When they were looking at it, my name came up as someone that they were seeing as a leader within the company because I was helping other business analysts to where, I don’t want to call them “Junior” because they really aren’t junior, but lower level business analysts mentoring them and helping them to understand ways to really kind of advance their career and also talking with business stakeholders, helping them on their projects and helping them drive those conversations with the business stakeholders while running my own projects as well, and helping them to understand who I was and how I operate. Really, it was almost like a no-brainer at that point that they went, “Oh, yeah. We really need her. We really need Jami on this one.”

Laura Brandenburg: You called it luck, but then you identified the actual actions that you had taken. There is a being in the right place at the right time, but there are also ways that you were definitely stepping up and showing yourself.

Jami Moore: Absolutely. Part of the ending, the way they kind of made the decision was who can we leave on our team to keep the lights on and the business running, and who can we pull to go into this new program? I just happened to be new enough to the company that I wasn’t familiar or deeply ingrained in the old system and the old processes and ways that they could shift me over and help them get a new set of eyes on doing all of this because that’s really what was needed was to break out of the old ways of doing things and see things in a different light.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. That’s awesome. You’ve been incredibly generous with your time. Your story is so inspiring, so thank you for sharing it.

Is there anything else that you’d like to share before we close things today?

Jami Moore: That’s a good question. I could share so much. I could. I could talk forever. I would say definitely, if you’re interested, definitely keep pushing at it because even when you’re in a company that might not, necessarily, recognize it, opportunities come up all the time and don’t be afraid to take the step to move away from your company if you need to advance your career. I think that’s the most scary part for a lot of us is having been in a company for a long time. I was with my previous company for a very long time. Don’t be afraid to make those moves because you will find when you do that, it builds your confidence, it builds your leadership skills. I love where I am now. I absolutely love it. I’m so glad I made the step. I would say my mother tells me all the time that fear is faux emotions appearing real. When you realize that or recognize that, it helps you to make that next move because you can push through.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. That’s awesome. And just to highlight the piece, you did say you got this opportunity for this big program because you were newer. I think we can get so entrenched in the value of our expertise, but that can actually, in a way, hold us back as well. That was part of that. I just wanted to connect that dot for anyone listening and might still have that “I don’t want to move.” It actually is what opened up this next opportunity too.

Jami Moore: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much for that, Jami. It’s been wonderful having you part of the program and part of our community. Thank you for sharing everything today.

Jami Moore: Thank you very much.

Laura Brandenburg: You’re welcome.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How Stephanie moved from London to Denver and then to Maine, stepping up in her career with each geographical move.
• How Stephanie was a business analyst long before she knew it was a “real job.”
• The tools and techniques Stephanie leveraged to bring BAs together at every organization she worked for.
• Why it’s totally normal to be an introvert and a business analyst (a lot of us are!).
• Why Stephanie chose to pursue the CBAP and the PBA, but not until later in her career, and the opportunities that opened up to her.
• How she only just recently earned an undergraduate degree – so she’s been an official BA, in leadership roles, changing companies several times over 15+ years, without an undergrad.
• And so much more!

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome, everyone! I’m here with Stephanie Cracknell today who lives in Maine in the U.S. and she is one of our course participants from back in 2013 – 2015. I think you took almost every one of our courses before we had what’s called The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program today, which kind of packages everything together.

You’ve just done amazing things in your career and you’ve always, since then, been a great supporter of Bridging the Gap, and we’ve never really gotten to sit down and have a conversation. So, I’m really excited to hear about all that and thank you for being here today.

Stephanie Cracknell: Thank you for asking.

Laura Brandenburg: Maybe take us back to where you were in your career before. I know you were in a different country and it looked like you were doing some business analysis back in 2011 – 2012 range.

Stephanie Cracknell: Gosh, I think I’ve been in that role since somewhere around 2003. It wasn’t, especially, really if you told some of your business analysts; it’s like, “So you manage projects or something?” It wasn’t really…I didn’t have like a job description for it, per se, at that point. I never knew, really, what it was. I worked in IT and it was, “Hey, there’s a need for a good quality system,” “We need to revamp our website.” So it was how do you go about that? It’s like, “Okay.” You’re going through all the steps you normally would do – understanding what the problem is, understanding where they’re trying to get to, understanding your audience, and things like that, but it wasn’t really a title for it. I think I started doing that ages ago. I really loved it and I think once I was at the company property in London for about eight years. That was at the point where I was kind of telling and people were understanding that was a real job.

Laura Brandenburg: You have a real job. Right.

Stephanie Cracknell: And it wasn’t, “Oh, you work in IT? Can you fix my laptop?” So, yeah, I had worked in…I had worked for a company for quite some time and I was ready for a switch, a business analyst job. It was the very first BA they’ve ever had in 100 years of existence. So it was a chance to make the job my own, but also because I was kind of what you would call homegrown talent without any training in terms of this as a BA.

I didn’t realize that this was really a practice that was so widespread. I had gotten involved with the BCS which was kind of the UK, the governing body for business analysis and things like that. And also IIBA in London. I’d gotten involved with them as I realized at the beginning. I wanted to have my practice be something a bit more standard and something that was, as you go to a new company. You can say that you’re doing it and plus, I wanted to put you in a company that I was working for.

At the Royal British Legion, I set up the BA practice there. But again, there’s always this element of doubt, “Am I doing it appropriately? Am I a fraud?”

Laura Brandenburg: You’d been doing it for 9 years and you had that feeling.

Stephanie Cracknell: Yeah. Exactly. And I had taken a course or two with the BCS just towards the BA diploma, again, to add an element of rigor. He’s just putting into practice there a legion, so I wanted to make sure I get that whole complex about…and I look at other BAs and get, “Am I really doing this the right way?” I thumbed through that and it was still, there’s still that lingering doubt even though I had led other ways.

I reached out to you. I’d been following you for quite some time and you offered a lot of knowledge to BAs for free. It was how you do things. I read articles about better ways to do and I had been following you for some time.

I reached out to you about the time that I was moving back to the U.S. and then there was this panic that, “Do they do things differently there?” There’s no difference in language or whatever, but is there a difference in practice? So, I was kind of freaking me out.

And you actually helped me put my resume together in a way that you give me a critique and how it would even be fed into people could read their, sort of, auto-feed, but also some advice on content. I totally revamped my resume based on help from you and I think when I got back to the U.S. I had a job within a week of getting to Denver. Obviously, something worked.

Laura Brandenburg: I feel like I want to focus a little bit into that being the first BA in a company and feeling a little bit like I think you said, a fraud. Right? There’s that internal confidence that I think is so important. Yes, your resume was important, but your interviewing and how that confidence came through was also very important there.

What was it like being the first BA at a company?

Stephanie Cracknell: It’s exciting and daunting at the same time. I was excited about the fact that I could make the job my own, but you also feel that it’s a panic station. Just like, “Oh my God, what does a proper BA do?” “Is there something I’m not doing?” “Is there a skill that I don’t have?” You can read all the books in the world that you want, but it’s understanding, “Do I have the right skill set for it?”

Again, even after sort years of doing it at that point, it was really understanding am I using my techniques? Because if you go into the IIBA and look at the BABOK, for example, it could be very overwhelming for someone that is trying to get into a practice and put in an element of rigor within the foundation.

Consistency of practice across what you do and what the other BAs do so when they come in, they’re not having to go through the same experiences that you are in terms of, “Do we set up templates?” and things like that. That was, again, something I looked at. The templates were incredibly useful. One; to have it because, again, there are certain things that you don’t know what you don’t know. You get ideas from that, “Am I doing things appropriately?” Okay great. Here’s a template.

Sometimes it helps stop the panic in terms of okay, good. This is the kind of information that I’m recapturing, but here is it in a format that makes a bit more sense. You were able to add that to your toolbox. Yeah, it’s both exciting and daunting at the same time.

Laura Brandenburg: Was that at the point when you took the courses, too, was right when you were in that first, like you were the first BA in this organization that was used to BAs. So like the course worked helped kind of give you that boost of confidence?

Stephanie Cracknell: It did really because that’s where your, “Okay, is there something, another way that I can be doing this? Is there another way I should be approaching it?” Especially if there’s kind of a real-world scenario to it where you and another BA would work off on another. I’ve kind of seen that back and forth and it’s not; it’s real-world scenarios. It’s getting that kind of feedback from another person that you’re seeing the back and forth, answering certain questions, whether it be elicitation, or what have you, or if it’s a particular technique.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s the part of the program that is…well, a lot of things are still the same, but that’s become an even bigger part of our program; it’s that back and forth with an instructor and helping people figure out how to apply it in their current world.

Stephanie Cracknell: That’s invaluable.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah.

So, take us into Denver, then. You said you found a job within a week. So you knew you were moving to Denver; like that was separate.

Stephanie Cracknell: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Then it was like, “What am I going to do here?” I remember some communication. I was in Denver at the time.

Stephanie Cracknell: Yes, absolutely. That was just so bizarre. You were like, “Oh my gosh, I’m here.” I’m like that was fantastic.

It was about that time that I moved there and you were actually working on your first book that you shared with me and I have since used that with other BAs at subsequent companies. But yeah, I was sort of panicked. It was maybe a different way of doing things. Not that there’s a difference or anything.

I know that the practice in terms of the IIBA was one that wasn’t as prevalent as it is in the U.S. It is now, but it wasn’t at that time. I was kind of worried that maybe there were other things that I should be doing. And, again, as a BA, you always want to be learning. I think we’re naturally curious. We’re always trying to make sure that we’re getting new skill sets and learning new things just so we can offer a better value to people that we’re working with. That’s kind of what I’ve done when I’ve taken some of your courses.

I think, also, I didn’t have any agile experience at that point either. I know one of the courses I had taken and I want to say it’s User Stories, Use Cases, sorry, you then offered an agile version after it because agile was a little bit more in use at that point, or probably quite a bit more pervasive in the U.S. I then went back and did it. I don’t have that experience and somebody that I was working for I was trying to get their agile practice up and running. So, I’m like, “Okay, great.” I need to really up my game there because then, again, you’re panicked. I’m like, “Okay,” now I figured I was a bit more comfortable in the old way of doing things in Waterfall and now we’re agile and all of a sudden it’s scary.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s a big thing that still comes up from people, I think, feeling like agile is new or scary. I remember feeling that same way my first agile project as a business analyst. It’s like you get into it and you’re like, “Oh,” so much is still the same. Did you kind of get to that, or do you still feel like it was a very big departure?

Stephanie Cracknell: It really depends on what kind of company that you work for. I’ve been in financial services now for a number of years and I think there’s an element of rigor to the financial services practice and the regulatory things that mean that there’s more documentation than is standard with agile. I think that’s something that you’ll never get away from. It’s either you’re having to keep your records for 7 to 10 years and there has to be that kind of paper trail. I think that probably in that case, I don’t like to say it’s less agile, but it is. It matters. You’re bringing kind of a hybrid approach. To me, that was less of a departure, so it wasn’t as, okay, completely different. Now I’m working in completely agile. It’s still financial services so there’s a little bit of documentation, but that’s kind of an after-the-fact kind of thing we notice is more standard.

You realize then financial services makes you sometimes document for document’s sake. You realize just how less risky it is if you are doing it appropriately.

Laura Brandenburg: Put on the thinking cap.

Stephanie Cracknell: Yes. Absolutely.

Laura Brandenburg: And so you went from lead to manager there, too. Were you setting up a new practice in this first company in Denver?

Stephanie Cracknell: When I first came to Denver, I worked for a nonprofit. I worked for Mercy Housing and they had a practice, but it was more, the folks that worked there kind of were homegrown talent. They came from somewhere else in the business. They come from somewhere else in the business and they had an aptitude for it and moved into a team and started doing the job and having the title without a rigor behind it in terms of, “Hey, this is how we’re going to do it.” It was kind of left to the approach of the particular individual. We decided we wanted a bit more rigor there as well just so, again, so there’s a common approach across the BAs that were there.

Again, we set up that kind of practice there so they went hand-in-hand with the project management practice. It was nice that they realized that just because you’re a BA doesn’t mean you want to be a project manager when you grow up, and keeping those two separate so you weren’t going from one to the other. You had two distinct people in those positions.

Yes, we set up the practice there and, again, using the training and the use cases and the user stories and the requirements training as well, I used that with the BAs that were there so that they could see; to me, we cannot stress that enough with people to sing that back and forth. “Oh, right.” “I like how you asked that question.” “I like how you framed that or phrased that.” It was just invaluable for them to see how it was done. Again, not necessarily, not looking that I wasn’t that involved. It’s not like it was coming from me in terms of I’m telling you what to do. It’s, okay, seeing a third party and this is how they do it. That always helps. You’re not coming in as if you are trying to tell someone how they should be doing something. They’re seeing it from someone very well known in the industry and they’re good at the practice. So, it’s an easier; it’s a softer way to bring things in and to train people if you like that element of training.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. I hadn’t thought about it that way because it can be, especially, if they have more experience in that company. Right?

Stephanie Cracknell: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: You can feel the outsider coming in to kind of just create a new way of doing things. But if you position it to an industry-standard or to a third like, as you said, a third party…

Stephanie Cracknell: To me, again, it’s you have the experience behind you. For someone to go and see, wait; you’ve been emboldened again. It’s someone that is very professional and very well known in the industry. To me it’s, “Hey I’m just passing on trying to…it’s already offered from someone else. So that, again, “Okay, cool. You’re just sharing what you know with me instead of telling me how I should do it.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. I love that.  Is there anything else you want to share about that before we kind of jump forward to whatever your next milestone might be?

Stephanie Cracknell: No, no. I think I’m good.

Laura Brandenburg: What came next?

Stephanie Cracknell: But I still felt like I needed to push myself and I wasn’t growing in the way that I wanted to in my career in terms of having bigger projects to work on and real challenges, you know, challenging projects and learning techniques and learning new technologies and things like that.

I went to work for financial services company’s tech center just south of Denver and that was probably where my biggest jump in career occurred. It was trial by fire. You came in and it was a massive change that they were going through understanding their customer journey and really revamping the way that they interacted. So understanding.

With the personas and things and the real…how are your customers coming to you and what are they looking for now? It’s that real-time where the whole Millennial generation where you’re really having to focus and change the way that you operate to meet the needs of a huge growing population down to investments and the way they and you interact. How they wish to interact with technology and kind of what they’re looking for.

It was just an amazing experience for me to work with just a driven group of people. Every day was a stretch. Not saying there weren’t days…there were days of panic, to be absolutely honest with you. There are sometimes when you’re learning new techniques you’re like, “Okay,” or you’re working with stakeholders that are 10 levels above you that you’re just rated it and figure out how you operate and how fast to approach it and things. I loved it.

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like they had quite a sophisticated or mature way of doing what they were doing. Where in the past you were creating the standards. In this case you were learning how they wanted to do both. It sounds like business analysis and project management, possibly.

Stephanie Cracknell: Absolutely. Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: That could have been a big shift, but also a great learning opportunity.

Stephanie Cracknell: It was a huge shift. And oddly enough you brought the word “sophisticated.” The project was called “Sophisticated Client.” It was. It was looking at your products. Are your products still appropriate for everyone that’s out there? Are you interested in the needs of your clients? Things like that.

So when I started, I said, “Okay, so where are all the BAs in our group?” And they’re like, “Okay, well, you’re it.” I was part of the PMO at that time before they decentralized the PMO and I was part of the team that was basically sent out, like if it was any need across the organization. So you would have a departmental analyst that would do kind of your requirements within the groups and then we were a group that would come in and provide project management and business analysis, and things like that. Whatever the need was, that would be prioritized and dispatched to help out whichever team we could help. This was a massive program going across the company and across many different teams. Depending on who you spoke to, there was a different way of doing things.

Again, I worked with the team to get all of the BAs who were together in kind of a BA forum so that we could look at how we did things across the board. Were there ways of doing things on one team that was better than another? And not just the rigor across the organization, it was also sharing of technology, sharing of the knowledge that each of these teams had. So you had a lot of business analysts that were product owners that had such deep understanding of technologies and reporting…things like that. There was no way that as a generalist across the organization, you were just popping in to help, whatever. You wouldn’t have that knowledge unless you were kind of working hand-in-hand with the teams.

It was interesting to work with them and partner with them and then have this kind of relationship set up so that as you were working across the teams that there was some kind of continuity across what your end results were, what your artifacts and things like that, but also there was kind of that teamwork so that if you were, okay, you’re going to be put in this team for a little while to work on this project, it’s like, “Oh gosh, I don’t even know this technology. How am I going to get up to speed?” You had this relationship with those other BAs in order to learn that. You had those relationships, “Okay, great. Yes, I’m happy to help you out and let me give you some background on these folks or the technology we’re using,” or kind of anything you would need. It was a real partnership across the BAs after probably about a year or so of being there.

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like wherever you’ve gone, you’ve helped bring the BAs together and have really been a champion for the role within your organization. Does that land with you?

Stephanie Cracknell: Yeah it does.

Laura Brandenburg: Not everybody does that. Some people would get into that role and just be like I’m going to worry about my thing. But you went and brought all those BAs together across all those different places and it also created a lot of great relationships for you to kind of get through whatever that learning curve.

Stephanie Cracknell: You’re the panic station. Anyone under five years at the company was like, “Oh, they’re…no.” Even after three years there, it was parts of the business that it was like a completely new territory. You’re always learning and each project you’re working on could be completely something new. Also, I think, to me, there’s always something to learn and it’s better. I think because I love what I do and I don’t ever see myself doing anything different until I can work for myself and raise dogs, you know, have a doggie daycare or something. I think it’s something that you’re always; you want to make sure that you’re building those relationships and learning new stuff at your company. The only way you do that is through the other folks in your team, you know, in teams.

Business analysts, I find, are the most helpful and friendly people no matter where you go. They always want to share. They always want to help train people. I remember when I was at this company – that’s where you and I probably met face-to-face at the IIBA meeting. Someone was talking about coming a BA and there was a gentleman at the company that I worked for who was very interested in it and didn’t have, you said, “I’m not sure if I have this skill set.” It was just like perfect timing.

You were speaking there and one of the things you were talking about were transferable skills. I’m like, “Oh, yes.” You’d ask for, at the beginning of the meeting, you asked for a volunteer. So I volunteered him, and he had to go up and bless his heart, he’s not at all shy thing, but yeah, he had to go up front with you and work through this. And you’re like, “Okay. Let’s get into what you do and understand what your transferable skills are.”

He’s quite a high up manager at our help desk. He’s very technical, but he had to work with quite a few and quite often there were people that would call him on his mobile to get help and things like that. He was very personable. And you did this kind of role play with him and questioned him on some other things that he could use as transferable skills and it gave him such confidence. Within, probably, four months, he took a BA role as a trial to see if it worked out and then it worked out really well and that was it for him.

Laura Brandenburg: I obviously didn’t know that. Yeah, I kind of, but I was piecing together the memory because I’ve done that at several chapters where we pull somebody up. There’s always some transferable skills. That’s amazing. What a great gift you gave to him to kind of give him that push.

Stephanie Cracknell: Yeah, I’m sure he didn’t think it at the time, but luckily it worked out. It got a new job and he loved it. He just needed that push and confidence to understand that, okay, these are my transferable skills.

Laura Brandenburg: That is awesome. That is the work of a true champion for you. What came next?

Stephanie Cracknell: Yeah, I think what we knew we wanted to move back to the east coast. We wanted to be by the water and Denver was not at all near the water. It just worked out my company was bought out by another company. I opted to take a package and it happened just around the time we were moving to Maine. I thought, “Well, we’ll just figure it out,” head out and just see what happens.

We are in Portland, Maine at the moment. I am, again, in financial services. I work in Portsmouth, New Hampshire for a lovely bank. In there, it was, for me, at that point, I think there are certain things that you find out as you progress in your career, what you want to do. So, I actually have two jobs at the moment. I’m working at a bank and I’m also, I start next month as an instructor for UC-Irvine in their BA Certificate.

One of the things I found out was that I’m teaching what I know, for what it’s worth. That kind of trajectory. I’m setting up a practice to teach people what I do and – not what I do, necessarily, but a big into BA skills because there are certain skills that I think are great in personality that you really need, if you want to be a business analyst. Then everything else outside of that you can learn.

One of those things when I was looking for a job, is one ….spent a lot of time on. But also the breadth of the projects that you’re working on, especially new technology, I love the idea of UI and UX. I’m learning that and other elements that I can learn.

We’re working quite closely where I am now with the UI and UX teams, and also working with junior BAs as well. I think that, in partnership with teaching, just being an instructor is that next step for me and just see where that takes me. I’d love to be a full-time instructor at some point. I love to get people excited about the role. But I don’t ever want to get too far away from it because I really do enjoy what I do. It’s getting involved in the community now, I think.

Where I am now is not as big a BA community as Denver or London, so it’s finding those pockets and getting involved. I think it is quite a social role even though I consider myself an introvert. I know quite a few BAs that are introverts. We are quite social, aren’t we? I know it’s a misconception. I’d heard in a webinar once that in order to be a good BA, you have to be an extrovert.  And that really worried me that people might get that wrong message.  At my last company, we had one of our UX designers is an incredible introvert, but he can be very social. He’s an amazing guy. So I had to give comment and give a whole thing about that, about you can be incredibly introverted all your life, but you can still do this role very well. You noted just how you set up your time and your schedule so that if you do need that time to decompress, you have that. I think that was the only other thing that I wanted to pass on as well.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, I think that’s so important. I’m also an introvert. I have a video on being an introverted BA because I get the same question. Somebody must have heard that same message somewhere. It created a little bit of a spiral in the profession. It’s like, no, no, no. Like totally, you do need to be able to talk to people and be a great communicator and all of those things, but introverts can still do that, too. It’s about where you get your energy from.

Today happens to be a day that I have a bunch of back to back things, but normally, I do not allow my schedule to have back-to-back meetings because I know I will be just completely depleted at the end of the day. Now, that is the sign of an introvert.

Then when I’m in the things, I’m great and I love it.

Stephanie Cracknell: Yeah, you fully get energy from it. It’s just after, you know, so I think we have two reasons here: because we have somebody to do meetings. It’s such a pull on the network. At work, we tend to stagger our meetings so they’re not starting, bang on the hour.  And it’s actually been a really good way to have that decompression time. Start at 15 minutes after the hour or…and 10 minutes early and then just have that time to…because a lot of times I’m taking notes and things like that. So I have time to…I love writing notes because, to me, I can’t type fast enough anyway, but so I have to kind of decompress, transcribe my notes if I need to electronically, and get ready for the next one.

Laura Brandenburg: Nice. Well, anything else that you would like to share? I guess the question I would like to ask you because you’ve had such this amazing…I’m doing this because I’m picturing UK to Denver, back to Maine. But that’s just a geographical aspect of it that, you know, you’ve had an amazing career progression and kind of different flavors. What would you advise to someone who’s following, who would like to follow in your footsteps in terms of moving into these more leadership type roles.

Stephanie Cracknell: Yeah, I guess for me, well, for anyone really, is understanding what you’re saying where your strengths are…and one thing I’ve really had to learn that is not at all natural to me is putting yourself out there in terms of letting people know what you’ve done, what you’ve accomplished.  And to me, I don’t know if it’s self-deprecation but it’s really difficult.

I am the type of person where I am happy to be part of a team and I don’t have to shout about what I’ve done. I’m happy to support other people. You’re doing the hard work and getting it done, but I’m happy, but I’m deflecting kudos for it and that is going to be one of your biggest things that will sabotage you in a minute. That’s the way in which you operate. I hate to say it, but it’s really you have to toot your own horn. That’s one of the things that, again, in England, it’s a different way of doing things and being a female.  I can’t deny that part of it as well. You have to look the way that you present yourself and the way that you work with the teams to be considered, especially in Financial Services because it is a male-dominated industry. To me, I had to really, and I’m always looking, whether it be interviews or what have you is how you frame things and how you quickly get to the point. Also, think being aware of other styles of people personality types.

I had, not an issue, but it was like, I felt like one of my bosses we just were not on the same page in our communication styles. We would speak and I’m like, okay; I feel like I’ve understood you and I come back and she’s like, “No. That’s just not quite it.” We finally had personality testing and genetics, and we published it across our team so you could see where people were on the scale. I found I’m very much in the weeds. I love the details, that kind of thing. And she was blue sky. I was like, “Oh gosh. Okay.” Then it was just like a light bulb and I said, “Okay, how can I communicate better with you because we’re in a disconnect. I want to understand how I can communicate and get you what you need, on a level that you need it. We came to a point where she’s like, “Alright, great. I don’t need all that detail. I know that you’re doing what you should be doing, so this is what you do.”

Again, it’s understanding, how you’re communicating with people and adjusting your style and understanding that they may not want to be in details with you. A lot of BAs are very detailed oriented.

Laura Brandenburg: As you start to climb up those levels, you take ownership of more of those details that you don’t have to communicate all of those details because you will lose your audience.

Stephanie Cracknell: Right. Very much so. Their eyes are glazed over. So, yeah, that’s been a big thing for me as well.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, so thinking about how you promote your work and your wins and sharing kind of your own kudos, essentially. And also how you’re communicating with other people is a great thing.

Stephanie Cracknell: Absolutely. One of the things I’ve noticed in the U.S. and I know it’s not the same everywhere, but certifications are big.

You know, it’s funny because before I decided to get my CBAP, you had a really good article on it about whether, is this something I need to do? I know you kind of weighed that out whether you really needed to do it. My instructor role came off the back that I actually had to pay my certification for the PBA and the IIBA CBAP. There are not a lot of people that do both. I wanted to see what the difference was between the two of them and that’s actually what persuaded for me to be able to teach this course.

Certifications, in some areas, are big. I finished my degree for myself. I’ve literally only finished it last year, but I didn’t necessarily do it for my education in that way. But always learning and always learning something new. Not just become relevant, but it’s more so that you’re keeping yourself sharp. There are techniques you learn from everything. I’m not necessarily sure that I want to be a UX designer, but I love elements of it and I love some of the things that come from it from the knowledge that you have, the research and things like that really help you in your role, and really help you because where I am now is incredibly smart. There’s always something new for them to work on so they don’t always have time to work on some things that you have. They might be smaller projects, so it’s nice that you can have that handoff. They’re more than happy to work with me and say, “Okay, great. You’ve made a really good start here. Let me just give you some advice on how to tweak that so that that’s going to give you what you need and we don’t need to be actively involved.

Laura Brandenburg: What point in your career did you get your certification?

Stephanie Cracknell: I’ve had, at the start of the probably in 20, gosh, when it first came out. I’m going to say, is that 2014?

Laura Brandenburg: Sounds about right. That was right after your coursework with us or kind of alongside. You used the course work to get that one.

Stephanie Cracknell: It was. And I, literally, that was part of the beta. And then I did the CBAP probably two years afterwards. I sort of read yours and that kind of put me off at first only because not that you put me off of it, but it was I knew the level of rigor and it kind of…the trickiness to the questions. Like, alright, I have to; it’s not that it put me off, but I knew I had to have the time to do the proper amount of study and preparation for it. So, I’m like, alright. I’ll put that off for, you know.

Laura Brandenburg: For people listening, I just want to emphasize, too, that this was after you were already in BA Leadership roles.

Stephanie Cracknell: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Where I see the misconception is that I need this feedback to get started. I need that certification in order to even start doing the role. But I think doing it, like, I did mine a bit later in my career. You did it kind of mid-career. Then it starts to open up more opportunity.

Stephanie Cracknell: It does.

Laura Brandenburg: It doesn’t hold you back from getting to where you’re going.

Stephanie Cracknell: No, especially starting out. One of the BAs where I work now wanted her CCBA.  Went for it. It made no difference in her career in terms of we’re not going to promote you based on it, but it shows a level of commitment to your career once you’re already in it. That it’s something that you’re continuing; you’re continuing your training. You’re continuing your progression in your career. I think it’s more…and not saying that there aren’t companies out there that hire based on that. But, for me, what I’ve seen is that it’s something that they chose that you’ll dedicate it to your career. It’s something that you want to carry on in that profession and it’s something that you want to add to your own…you want to add another level of rigor to what you do.

Laura Brandenburg: And just, because I want to make sure I heard you right. Did you say that just this past year you finished like what would be considered an undergraduate degree?

Stephanie Cracknell: I graduate November of 2019, CSU.

Laura Brandenburg: I get that question a lot as well about well, “I don’t have an undergraduate degree. Can I be a BA?” You’ve also proven that to be totally possible.

Stephanie Cracknell: Absolutely. And really, I’ve only got my degree for myself. It was a milestone for me. I’m like, “Alright, I’m turning 50. I want to have my degree.” I haven’t studied for 30 years and yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Alright. Well, thank you. You’ve been incredibly generous with your time and your thoughts and your shares, and think you’re going to inspire a lot of people. Thank you so much, Stephanie.

Stephanie Cracknell: Thank you.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

As you’ll see, she’d already leveraged the program to secure paying, part-time contract work with a local CPA, in the middle of shelter-at-home orders due to COVID-19.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• Why Becky chose to invest in her skill set during a period of unemployment, and how she chose what to invest in.
• The opportunity to apply your business analysis skills to help a small business provide virtual services.
• How Becky turned volunteer work into paying contract work.
• The differences in Becky’s experience with project management roles and business analysis techniques, and how that’s informing her next steps.
• How Becky is creating a work portfolio that can be leveraged in her business analyst job search.

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome. Laura Brandenburg here with Bridging the Gap here today with Becky Goll. So excited to meet with you. She is actively in The Business Analyst Blueprint® training program right now and has had some great successes. I’m so excited that she agreed to talk with me today. Welcome, Becky.

Becky Goll: Thank you for having me.

Laura Brandenburg: I just love your smile. You’re so excited. I love it. Could you just tell me a little bit about where you were? We’re in end of April 2020 right now. People might be hearing this in a couple of years, but in the middle of COVID 2020, but where you were back in January because this has been kind of a strange Blueprint in that a lot of people joined the program without knowing this was happening. Where were you in January in your career? What were you hoping for?

Becky Goll: I’ve had a lot of discovery process since then. Back in December, I lost my job. This was even after all the COVID craziness and I was just really looking into how to incorporate more of my skill set. What I found was that a lot of the jobs that I have had in the past, project management focused and project management roles, but I noticed that I really liked the projects where I was kind of digging further into why things weren’t working properly.

I kept getting hit over and over again with bumps in the road in the project management that I was doing and I really wanted to discover and ask questions of other people around me about what was going on, were they having the same issues as I was? I just wanted to dig underneath what was happening. And so I kept on kind of going in that direction.

As I discovered, this is Business Analysis 101, the first steps, of trying to figure out what the issues were. Then I found myself mapping out some process flows, not even knowing that that was what it was called.

At the time, I don’t think that the work that I was doing allowed me to enter into that role, so there wasn’t really much opportunity  for me to move in that direction; just like kind of financial difficulties over and over again with the companies I had been with. That’s kind of led me to the best spot of being like, okay, I need to settle into the skills that I naturally tend towards and grab a hold as a project manager and see how it goes. And today, I’m here.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s a big leap to jump into a program like The Business Analyst Blueprint® after – I didn’t realize you had lost your job in December. What was your thought process there?

Becky Goll: I had definitely been thinking about, okay, I need to build my skill set in another area beyond just project management and, specifically, it was print marketing, which is a dying industry or it’s morphing a lot. I needed to get out of that industry is what I wanted to do.

But then my dad, also, we think very similarly and he is a consultant. I had checked in with him, kind of had a brain session with my dad to see what is this called that I’m leaning more towards? Sure enough, it was like business analysis.

I looked online for different programs that were offered and was doing some YouTube research as well with that term and you came up, and a lot of the videos that you’ve put out. But when I also compared your program with, let’s see, it was, I think I did UC-Irvine, and then I did Berkeley as well just to see what their programs looked like, and they were two times the cost of what you were putting out there. But their structure was different. Like you had explained, too, they were kind of more academic and less hands-on. And so, kind of the price point was right for me and I was really appreciative of how much information you had provided already with being a BA, the process of that. You did a great job in providing me with information to make that decision.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, that’s awesome. We’re 2/3 of the way through the program now, but do you want to just talk us through – I know you’ve analyzed the business process and you’ve created some project work for yourself, right, essentially.

Becky Goll: Yeah. Like you had shared, the hands-on process with your program allows you to incorporate what you’re learning in The Blueprint into real-life projects. Luckily, I have a roommate that owns a tax business. And so I reached out to her and she’s in between the stage of being a startup and trying to create processes and hiring on new people. She needed to data dump from her head what the processes were and kind of mapping it.

I helped her map out that process initially. The skills that I’m learning are definitely a part of that. It’s been very helpful and a part of the big selling point for me in The Blueprint was also just knowing that I could have a portfolio of my work that I had done because I don’t have much experience yet in business analysis; just the project management side. I wanted to be able to speak to that. And, I guess, a culmination of confidence in what I had done already but, then, also just being able to show it.

Laura Brandenburg: What are some of the processes that you mapped for her? There’s been this trend, potentially opening, of small businesses needing us to. We think of business analysis as being something that’s usually in a larger corporation but, like, I’m a small business and we definitely do…we probably don’t do enough of our own business analysis. I’ve seen this in the entrepreneurial world of people really needing that. So I’d be curious to hear how that went.

Becky Goll: So, her business is virtual already, so a lot of tax businesses had now locations where they would have clients come in and talk to a tax representative and work through their taxes. She has bookkeeping and taxes. She wanted me, specifically, to look at the tax client, pretty much from start to finish. We’d do their return and send it to the IRS. That process from start to finish is what she wanted me to look at.

At the time, she was already becoming virtual because she is a traveler and needed to have this mobility and still receive clients while she was traveling. She removed her physical location probably a year ago now. She was kind of ahead of the curve. I was looking at that process and it’s morphed and changed a lot.

I think what was difficult initially because she is a visionary leader is that I had a hard time getting the as-is process because she so badly wanted to tell me what she wanted it to be. There was a lot of back and forth with that. I was able to help her with that. She already had a lot of ideas for improving that process. I was just now I had been helping her implement that.

Laura Brandenburg: Did this end up being paying project work, or were you volunteering for her?

Becky Goll: I think initially, I guess maybe I’m doing a bit of both. Initially, it was just a volunteer thing. But then I noticed that the course was aimed at doing the skill set and teaching the skills and the techniques and not the actual implementation steps; kind of by-project billing for that implementation.

Laura Brandenburg: Perfect. Of the process?

Becky Goll: Yeah. And so it’s nothing…I’m definitely not identifying myself quite yet as a freelancer or anything, but it’s definitely in the right direction as far as testing those waters out, if you will, of seeing if this is where I want to move next.

Laura Brandenburg: I imagine there could be other processes, too, right? So you can volunteer for within the course to complete the course, and then it leads to other things. That’s kind of interesting and simple.

Becky Goll: I think specifically here, I mean, she is a good friend of mine, but she definitely sees that these techniques and these different ways of looking at her business can be used in different areas of the business. So you’re exactly right. I do have two or three other projects that she wants me to do as well after this one. It is interesting that once you kind of gain that trust and show that initial benefit of what you’re doing and showing them a lot of transparency in all this, that she sees it as a value and wants to continue to move forward, especially since you’ve gained so much information up front.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, once you understand their business for sure.

Becky Goll: Yeah, there’s a lot of initial understanding and then it kind of just ramps up from there.

Laura Brandenburg: Are you also doing a use case using the same kind of scenario or did you move on to something else?

Becky Goll: I did morph a little. I did change a little bit. Not, I think, because it’s heavy tax season right now. I wanted to just be mindful of her time and not get too deep into what she was doing. What was interesting is I was doing a lot of wireframes and all and someone…I didn’t map the use case out, but I did start doing some wireframing before I even was taking the course or knew what it was.

Laura Brandenburg: I had another question but it escaped me. It was about this scenario. I think it’s so amazing how one; we’re in the middle of a really challenging time and you’ve found work for your roommate, which is a great way to build both that in-person experience. I would have never thought of that and also be building your portfolio because the job market is probably a little slower than normal right now. I do see people getting opportunities. That’s what I wanted to ask you about was like the portfolio and the value that you’re putting on that because you do come out with all of these different samples. How does that make you feel as you’re starting to look at applying for other positions or thinking about your next step?

Becky Goll: It’s something I’m still exploring. If I want to have a PDF of all of those things, or if I want to move it into a website sort of thing, still trying to figure that part out, and still trying to format that also and understanding which pieces I need to parse out vs. combining and bundling into one. I’m still working on that part, I would say. Still have to do a bit of research on what that looks like or just kind of put a draft out there and then throw it around a little bit and edit it down. I hope that answered your question.

Laura Brandenburg: It just sounds like you’re preparing to put it out there for employers to either find or that you might share in an interview or something like that.

Becky Goll: Definitely have been taking some screenshots and making a few recorded videos of old way vs. the new way and collecting all of those different pieces to put them into a final ta-da!

Laura Brandenburg: Look at me. I’m a business analyst!

Becky Goll: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Any advice for people looking to follow in your footsteps?

Becky Goll: Like you’ve probably watched one or two of Laura’s videos or you’ve kind of realized that this is something that’s resonating with you. Just to keep on pursuing that and trying to find space for it because if it is something that you know that’s in your skill set, especially in this time when there’s a lot of uncertainty of what’s going to happen next, it’s just a great time to invest in yourself and your skills.

I think that I was not really putting…I was kind of putting the option off, I think, and not pursuing the things that I continue to see patterns in myself that I was doing.

The unemployment helped kick me in the right direction. If you find yourself in that position, to keep on pressing on in seeing the positive side, I guess. I’m really enjoying it. I notice, too, that it’s work that I want to be doing even despite if it’s not super high paying initially. It’s just nice to be able to help a business in this area and just to see the work headed in the right direction. It seems to finally find something that I would do no matter what the cost, in some ways.

Laura Brandenburg: You’re finding, then, a big difference between the project manager work you did before and business analysis from a personal fulfillment. There are a lot of people that almost want to go the other way or are considering back and forth between those careers. Could you talk a little bit about how the differences have been for you in terms of what you enjoy more about the business analysis stuff?

Becky Goll: Yeah, I think the business analysis side allows me to kind of look more big picture. The project management is definitely more day to day and doing tasks, and those things which actually have kind of allowed me to be on the ground level of the work. I’m able to see the things that aren’t working because I’m at the ground level and not like at a super high leadership level. So that’s been helpful in understanding some of the…just understanding the landscape. From there, I would kind of understand the bigger picture from being lower on the totem pole, if you will.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, from understanding the operations of how business flows. When you’re sitting down to analyze a process, you’ve done processes; you’ve been that person doing it. I think it’s much more challenging. This is why we help mid-career professionals because it’s really hard to teach what it’s like to work in an office or how workflows; that part. That experience gives you a certain empathy with other people who are doing that kind of work, including your roommate and her tax business.

Becky Goll: Definitely. I mean I think the one thing that I notice the most is the project management from business analysis is as a project manager, you have your day job, and that’s enough. That’s a lot of work already. I really wanted to enter into the business analysis realm, but I didn’t have enough time and I didn’t to put all of that work into it. It really is its own role because there’s a lot of work to look at.

The business analysis role definitely allows the people to do their own work in the roles they currently have while that business analysis can kind of tap into what you’re doing already and make little improvements as you go down the line so that you can really actually work in a good way.

I think I will kind of use project management, continue to use project management as my solid position and then kind of use business analysis as kind of a side project that I’m continuing to pursue because I am detail-oriented and I do have some project management skills, but I really do like more of the bigger picture and trying to implement improvements. That’s definitely where I find the most excitement. I’ve always been process improvement. “Oh, I’m so excited.”

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, I can see it. Look at that smile. That’s awesome.

This has been awesome. I thank you so much for sharing this. Is there anything else that you wanted to share before we close things out?

Becky Goll: No, I think that’s it.

Laura Brandenburg: Alright. Thank you so much, Becky. I can’t wait to see where things go in your business analysis/project management career.

Becky Goll: Thank you, Laura.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

What I love about David’s story is how he has jumped in and tackled so many big challenges…from an agile transition to a highly technical project to leading his team.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• The skills David has relied on to be successful on highly technical projects, even though he doesn’t have a coding background.
• How and why David made the jump into a leadership role.
• How important it is to understand the customer need and the value of the solution you are providing.
• The business analyst techniques David leverages in an agile environment.
• Why even with 16 years of experience, moving into a new BA role at a new company can be a challenge, and how David stepped up to excel.

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome. I’m here today with David Sullivan from Forte Research in Madison, Wisconsin. Hey, David.

David Sullivan: Hi. How are you?

Laura Brandenburg: Good, I’m great. Thank you so much for being here. David was a participant in the Fall 2018 session of The Business Analyst Blueprint®. We’ve connected a few times since the program. I actually got to meet him when I was speaking out in Madison and he helped get me on to the speaker roster there, which I was really grateful for.

He’s done a lot of really cool things with his career since that time and so I wanted to share a little bit about some of the goals he’s been filling and what he got out of The Blueprint program as well. So, thank you so much, David.

David Sullivan: No problem. My pleasure.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, if you could just take us back to before you joined with us. What kind of role were you in? I believe you were already in a business analyst’s role. What were you hoping to achieve through the program?

David Sullivan: Absolutely. Just to give you background on me, I had been a business analyst in one capacity or the other for probably better part of 16 years, but had never really been a true business analyst. I’d been maintaining systems and just kind of keeping up.

I had the opportunity to take a job with this company in a business analyst capacity and I quickly realized that even though I’d been a business analyst for a long time, my business analysis skill set wasn’t kind of where I wanted it to be with regard to what this company’s needs were and I happened to come across Bridging the Gap. Made a connection with Laura based on some testimonials I’d heard from other people; enrolled in the course and got some really great resources out of it.

The training was exceptional and it was something I could leverage pretty much every day in my current role, and it led to some really exciting opportunities here. I work in the healthcare software industry and what’s happened in probably the course of the last year is not only did I excel as a business analyst on our one product, but I was able to actually leverage my expertise onto a secondary team.

In addition to that, we made a lot of changes internally, so I’ve been helping out in other capacities where I think the Bridging the Gap content really kind of helped me get those doors open.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. And when I met you in Madison, you were leading a small team. Were you already doing that before you joined The Blueprint, or was that something that came up afterward?

David Sullivan: No, I was not. I’d never led a team before in my life. I had always been a part of a team and always looked to other folks. But the opportunities presented themselves, and I really felt like a lot of the things I learned in Bridging the Gap translated really well into sort of that leadership, that team role where I could kind of guide and direct and provide feedback, support, servicing education, and surfacing information up the chain so everyone was staying on top of things.

By the time we met in Madison, I went from effectively being a BA on a team to really stepping into, kind of, a leadership role within the team. Very fortunate to bring you to Madison to have you do some speaking engagements with other BAs.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, that as a ton of fun. It was so nice to meet you and your team. I felt like I had somebody to sit with at the table.

David Sullivan: I was so pleased we got to connect there.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, that’s a big shift. So you went from kind of feeling like I’ve been doing this for a long time, but this role is requiring me to operate at a different level so, then, emerging as a leader within that organization. That’s pretty amazing.

David Sullivan: Absolutely.

Laura Brandenburg: Tell me a little bit, so we covered the business process, use cases and wireframes, data modeling. Did any one of those modules, in particular, stand out to you in terms of how you were able to apply them right away?

David Sullivan: I mean this may sound like a cop-out, but every single process that I went through with Bridging the Gap I completely leveraged within the role. I was already doing wireframes, but I’ll be honest, I was doing them, literally, back in the napkin; really rough ideas.

A lot of the wireframe techniques that were in Bridging the Gap were not things that I was leveraging. A lot of the directional lines as far as information’s going into play and coming out; this is conditionally applying to everything. Taking that, if I took that alone, that really helped in getting people on board.

The other component was just the real level of the definitions of everything. We’d never done Table of Contents before. Unfortunately, something as simple as a table of contents leads to a lot of confusion. I say one term, but somebody interprets it as another and the customer interprets it as another, or vice versa.

They have one terminology for something, but in the software, it’s completely different. Leads to a lot of confusion and chaos. Having all those word definitions in there, a Table of Contents where folks can really drive down and find information that pertains directly to them, it speeds up the process and makes for better requirements.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, so kind of just those little tweaks that you were able to apply to take what you knew but do it in a little bit more structured way.

David Sullivan: Absolutely.

Laura Brandenburg: Some of the results that I heard you share were like getting easier buy-in from the stakeholders. So, your projects were going a little bit more smoothly. How did that leadership opportunity come about? People always like to hear about how that happens for people. Did you do something specific that made that happen?

David Sullivan: I’d love to stand here and toot my own horn and tell you, you know, that I did something out of this world. But the honest to God truth was the person that was operating in our leadership space moved on to another organization and I would say that I quickly recognized with that person moving on, we were kind of going to be left to our own devices and somewhat adrift. There’s a lot of responsibility that comes in that leadership role.

So I went to Senior Leadership and said, “Hey, I’m recognizing a gap right out of the gate. Here’s my suggestion for solving it. Move me into that space.” I will continue to operate as a business analyst, but I will also function in that space until a replacement is found, or I moved into that space permanently, or whatever decision is made. But I think, probably, the biggest component out of all of that was seeing that gap, taking the business analyst’s approach, looking at what you’re trying to accomplish, looking at where the deficits may come from, and then really addressing them and having that, walking into a senior leadership office with a solution is probably the biggest advice I could give to anybody.

It’s easy enough to point out the problem, but if they’re like anybody else, if you’re not coming to me with a solution, the solution’s on me. If you’re really great; if you have something in your pocket.

Laura Brandenburg: Right.

David Sullivan: I did that. Was able to move into that leadership role and really provide guidance. It allows the team to operate in their own capacity. So my quality assurance folks don’t have to worry about getting this information over to the doc team or connecting with the sys administration team. My engineers can focus on engineering; their data development and that aspect.

I don’t know if you want to touch on it at all, Laura, but we also moved into an agile environment. So if you want me to expand on that, I’m happy to.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. And before you – I do want to hear all about that because I think that’s really interesting for people – before, I just want to affirm. You said, “I wish there was a story,” but there wasn’t.

But you actually did, you called this a problem, the gap, but you actually capitalized on that opportunity and took the action of presenting a solution, so the reverse that often happens, just kind of coaching for everyone, is like, “Oh, management’s not filling this role. This is a problem.” That doesn’t get you to that opportunity. But going in and actually volunteering for it, that’s a big boost. That took a lot of confidence. That’s pretty incredible. The role has continued to evolve over the last year.

David Sullivan: Correct. In addition to those changes, we also went through a software development change. We decided to adopt the agile development lifestyle. We are a Scrum team. We leverage SCRUM. A little bit in there. I guess you could call in CONScrum or ScrumBON.

I was tasked to be the SCRUM master, so I went ahead and got certified as a SCRUM master. And then my team decided that we will all take on a product over shift. What I do in the SCRUM Master role is effectively, I look at the work ahead of us. I plan accordingly. I work with the team to make sure that their needs are met and that we’re moving forward.

So every two weeks, we produce software that is testable, it’s usable, some aspect. It’s basically just a ton of smaller mini releases. And then we release the major software three times a year. The major release, the upgrades, is three times a year. It’s been really advantageous to take the skills that have come through Bridging the Gap to build that confidence, to manage that amount of work, and leverage all of those skill sets; apply it to our Scrum design, work within the teams, and just move forward from that.

Not to keep iterating over and over, but there is one additional piece, and this is directly to the skills that I learned in Bridging the Gap. I’ve also been leveraged as a business analyst, so additional change to write very technical requirements. That’s probably one thing I will speak to.

When I took this role, I was not what you’d consider a technical BA. No Com Sci degree. I haven’t been a programmer for 100 years or anything like that. I recognized right away that I needed a skill set that would enable me to be a successful business analyst in a very technical space by using methodologies and techniques that break things down to much more understandable pieces. The stuff I learned in Bridging the Gap really helped that.

Going back to the wireframes and the table of contents, and the data dictionary, that stuff really exposes a lot. What you find out is even though it’s a very technical space; there is a strong need for that additional communication level so people can understand what the requirements are.

Laura Brandenburg: And you said you didn’t have a technical background. So what was your background before you started as a business analyst?

David Sullivan: My background was, effectively, more of the UI pieces of the software. You know when you click on the drop-down; it’s going to present you with this. The orders are going to be bolded. The letters are going to be Calibri 12.5. That sort of thing.

Laura Brandenburg: Got it.

David Sullivan: Functionality, when you do this, conditionally, it’s going to do that. Now I’ve moved into a space where I’m helping re-write our API interface. We’re moving from one very technical soap-based interface to Rest API. I’m working on additional interface archetypes, fire; we have some customizable interfaces and writing requirements for that. Working with my development team; I’ve got 9 engineers on a team that I work with. I’m really finding a need for fleshing out what these requirements need to look like, what the expected behaviors are, what the API should support, what it shouldn’t support; really kind of streamline things so that the customer needs are met, but there’s also an amount of work that’s reasonable for our own organization.

Laura Brandenburg: What are some of the techniques that you’re leveraging there to get to those requirements?

David Sullivan: yeah, so a lot more elicitations. I go back to, you know…

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, I would have thought you were going to say data modeling. So, no.

David Sullivan: The crux of the BA is the five whys? Why are we doing this? And it really goes back to that is that customer elicitation.

Now, for me, my customers are all internal. I’m writing for an engineering team and interfaces team and I really need to understand what their needs are. I can sit there all day and say, “Oh, create something that does this.” But if that’s not feasible, or if that doesn’t align with what the boundaries are of development, there’s no use to it. Honestly, the biggest help is iterating that elicitation.

Now, yes, there is a fair amount of data modeling because we have one interface that we’re replacing with another. So, to that end, I’m comparing. I’ve got the other interface specs. I look at what’s in there, and then it’s a lot of, just like in any data modeling between two products, whether it’s term products or a third party product, and your product, you want to make sure you’ve got things as simple as naming conventions.

If it’s a “Recruited by” field, you want to make sure that “Recruited by” translates perfectly to “Recruited by ID” in another application. So, it’s really documenting what those key points are and making sure that everybody’s on the same page with that has been really crucial.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, I can see that. I did want to just go back a little back to your agile work too because we kind of moved from agile to the interfaces pretty quickly. We get a lot of questions about this. In an agile role, what are the BA techniques that we still need to use? Or how do we use some of those business analysis techniques? So, could you kind of speak to that? I think you said you’re still using all those techniques, but how does that actually play out day to day? Would you analyze a business process and then turn that into user stories? What are you actually doing today?

David Sullivan: Some of the agile processes that align perfectly for BAs, you kind of touch on them at the very end there, is user stories, workflow is a real key component, and then acceptance criteria. I’ll kind of go through them one-by-one.

The user story in the agile BA realm is super crucial for nothing more than establishing a scope of what you’re trying to accomplish. As a user, I need this so that I can do that. It paints a real clear picture of that right out of the gate. I understand what the customer request is and it gives you the clear picture of where this effort is going, where this initiative is going.

It also has the tendency to really start opening up a lot of other ideas and questions. I work very heavily with our quality assurance folks. They do all the testing. As a BA, I lean on them heavily. I would encourage anybody that has quality assurance people to lean on them heavily for understanding initiatives and work whether it be in an agile environment or waterfall environment, or whatever you’re working in because they consider things that might not be best practice, and you might overlook it. You’re only as knowledgeable as you understand what it is that you’re working on.

The next piece comes down to the workflow. Understanding a customer’s workflow really drives requirements in so far as getting down on paper, or whatever you use, a real succinct understanding of what it is that they need and what they want out of it, what they want to accomplish; what the actual software or whatever it is that you’re working with should allow them the ability to do. It helps you determine value. It helps you drive forward with that initiative. It may also even open up additional components of design. It exposes things that might not have been considered by a consumer.

And then the final piece is really part of the agile development life cycle, but as BAs, it’s really crucial writing acceptance criteria. And I’ll be honest with you. I think acceptance criteria are a challenge. I don’t ever think it’s done the same way twice. There’s no boilerplate approach to it. There might be a few things as far as making sure permissions are correct, and if you don’t have them, this shouldn’t be allowed to be done.

But writing acceptance criteria as a BA and really defining what it is, that component of work, that initiative or project should accomplish really pays dividends because if you’re in an environment where you may review this before the efforts are ever taken, looking at what expectations are as a final result can really expose a lot of gaps and save a lot of time down the line as far as development, as far as testing. You don’t want things coming back around having to be rebuilt once you’ve set it in motion. So having that complete picture really provides a lot of opportunity.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And I can see how the skills that you learn kind of overlap with, now, what you need to be creating, too.

Any last tips that you would like to share with somebody that’s seeking to follow in your footsteps?

David Sullivan: Sure. I don’t want to sound cliché, but just kind of keep plugging away. I would say, probably, the biggest advice I’d give to anyone that’s looking to advance their career or even just start out as a BA – I’ve known plenty of people who have been in that BA role or capacity, but at the same time, really effectively operating in that capacity. They might have been in product support. They might have been in some sort of customer relations.

But they were able to identify here’s a need; I’ve recognized a need for a customer, and this is how it would bring value. Recognizing how it brings value to whatever it is that you’re working on. And then properly documenting that. There’s no bullet point format for that, but getting that down and getting in front of folks that know will get you noticed. Then just kind of taking the initiative to keep going at it, going after it, recognizing those gaps.

Don’t be afraid to reach out and ask questions of folks within your industry, maybe attend a conference. Plenty of BA resources online as far as where conferences are. A lot of times there are user groups that meet in your regional area. Those are really good resources. Not to give a nicely timed plug here, but I will say that Bridging the Gap really provides some of the best content I’ve ever been exposed to.

Like I said, I’ve been a BA for a long, long time in several jobs. That was all I’d ever done for the last 16 or so years. But the content that was in Bridging the Gap was really eye-opening and I’ll be honest, even though I’m a year removed from it, I’m still going back to my documents, my worksheet documents every single week just to say, hey, is there something that I’ve missed? Is there something I could do a little bit better? How am I going to alleviate questions or confusion around here? That’s a big BA responsibility; taking that confusion, that misconception, that lack of understanding and making it clear; making it so that everyone can understand.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Just one final question for you. If you hadn’t chosen to move forward with The Business Analyst Blueprint®, where do you think you might be today?

David Sullivan: I’ll be honest; it was a big list to come to a new organization. I’ve learned all new processes. I’m learning all new technology. I can’t honestly say that I’d where I am right now. There’s a chance I might have had to move on. There is a chance that I would still be sort of mired in the learning phase and really getting up to speed. But I’m very confident that the efforts of Bridging the Gap, the content and the efforts of your staff were all so accommodating and were so quick to respond to questions and correct my papers and correct my submissions and provide feedback, that sort of thing.

Not to mention all the additional components that you make available, all the conference calls; many a times I sat there over the lunch hour with my little headphones on listening to presenter after presenter. I’m not certain without all of that that I’d be where I am. So, I highly recommend tuning your skills. Keep working on your toolset. And just don’t get mired in the doubt, fear, and the confusion. Move forward. Any effort forward is going to be advantageous. So take action. I appreciate everyone taking that action.

Laura Brandenburg: And just to acknowledge for you, too, that awareness that you had and the decision that you made to make that investment. It’s a big step to just say I need something different to succeed in this situation, and then you made the most of it every step along the way.

David Sullivan: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much. I learned a ton of things about what has been going on for you, which is always really fun for me to hear. I just really appreciate your time in sharing and all the great work that you’re doing as a business analyst, as a Scrum master and a product owner, and a leader, and probably a few other hats that I missed. Thank you.

David Sullivan: Thank you so much, Laura. I appreciate the opportunity. I wish you the best.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you.

David Sullivan: Take care.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

After taking the BA Essentials Master Class, Toni quickly moved into a BA leadership role. She now runs her own company helping Salesforce.com BAs and is a Bridging the Gap instructor.

Learn how Toni:

• Was able to apply the business analysis process framework right away to the work she was doing on Salesforce.com applications.
• Became seen as a leader within her BA teams, because she could bring best practices.
• Built a portfolio of work samples to bring to an interview and demonstrate her capabilities.
• Was able to easily answer a common job interview question – what’s your business analysis approach?
• And why she is now choosing to be a leader and champion for business analysts outside her organization as well.

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome. I’m here today with Toni V. Martin. I’m so excited to be meeting with you today and hearing a bit about your business analysis career story. Thank you for being here, Toni.

Toni Martin: Thank you as always for having me.

Laura Brandenburg: And I jumped right in. I forgot, I’m Laura Brandenburg with Bridging the Gap. Toni has participated in our BA Essentials Master Class back in 2016. Today she’s doing amazing things in her career and with her business. We probably should have done this years ago, but we finally got to sit down and talk a little bit more about her story.

Toni, if you could kind of just take us back to 2016, 2017, kind of where you were in your career and what you were looking for.

Toni Martin: Sure. A little bit of background before that is that I was coming from a PR / Marketing background where I had worked for an agency and done some sales enablement things. I had a variety of experiences in marketing and sales operations, that type of thing and I was looking to make a career shift. I wanted more money and more satisfaction in my career. I got reacquainted with Salesforce.com.

For those who are not familiar, it’s a commercial off the shelf software and service platform that helps businesses optimize and automize their processes. It’s something that I had used in a past role that I did that kind of inventory where you start to think, “What have I done that I really liked?” Salesforce came to the forefront. I discovered that there was a whole community and resources and a path to start to kind of make that my career.

In the Salesforce world, there a few popular tracks. One of them is to be administrator. That’s the person who maybe works with the end users. And then there’s the developer track, which is more technical and deals with the coding portion of it. Neither of those felt right for me.

I got involved in my local community here in Atlanta and someone said to me, “Well, you know, you probably should be a business analyst.” And my immediate reaction was, “Oh no. I couldn’t do that. I’m not qualified,” not knowing what it meant to be a business analyst. That led me to research and I stumbled upon your information, your resources, the Bridging the Gap website and just go head first into all of your articles, your book – How to Start a Business Analyst Career, your freebies and really got a full grasp of what the profession was and understood that I actually was a business analyst already.

The work I had been performing were BA tasks and I didn’t know that. That helped me.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s huge. I feel like so often people find Bridging the Gap and they think that they’re starting a business analyst career. There’s this sense of awareness that happens and it’s like, no; I actually have been doing business analysis.

What were some of the specifics that you identified; experiences or the skills that you had that you were able to move forward?

Toni Martin: Well, for me, just the process of analyzing and assessing what the pain points were for the businesses that I worked with or the clients that I worked with, outlining a solution, in the Salesforce world, as a Salesforce BA, I may take the extra step of configuring the solution, but one thing that I see that’s missing is that people love the tool; they get enamored. It’s a low code/no code tool. People get enamored with the ease of it and they dive head first into the fun parts, the nuts and bolts, the configuration.

What I realized was that by doing some of the BA work that I later learned that’s what that was; I was preventing myself from having a lot of missteps and building the wrong thing, not doing thorough discovery. I didn’t realize the things that I thought were just inherent to how I worked were part of a codified profession of business analysis and it just made me more confident and more sure that that was the right track for me to be on.

Laura Brandenburg: What were you looking for when you did join the BA Essentials course?

Toni Martin: I was able to kind of get a start, but still to this day, there’s not much formal training. Almost no one I talked to receives formal BA training in college or at their job. Everyone is pretty much cobbling together best practices and what they can. But you typically don’t get that training on the job.

I didn’t feel like I was equipped to go for more advanced roles or just to be confident in interviewing and being ready to take on the actual title of Salesforce Business Analyst without having some type of training. The BA Essentials made it affordable and easy and accessible for me to be able to get training on my own time while I was working and actually put myself with that formal training piece that I was looking for.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. So just you had the experience, but there’s that sense of a credential or just even being aware of best practices and what happens outside of your company. I know, for me, so much happened when I started to move around between companies. You start to see how the role is the same. But before you make that move, it can benefit you to kind of get that broader perspective as well.

Toni Martin: Another thing I loved is going through the Essentials, the vernacular vocabulary, the jargon, the deliverables. I didn’t have that vocabulary. I just knew that, “Make a list of questions.” I wouldn’t have that called out as part of a formalized process that I went through. Working through that in Essentials gave me that framework. I love the word “framework.” Just being able to say, “This is my framework for how I approach project. That just sounds so confident.

Laura Brandenburg: So official. Right? What were some of your – you were able to apply it right away or figure out that you had been applying it, but now have a framework to reference. What were some of your other takeaways?

Toni Martin: One of the biggest things for me is I used to plan, the template that we put together in Essentials. I used that to start doing my work in accordance with this process. And also, using that to create deliverables for a portfolio. That’s one of my biggest tips. I’m giving this to everybody free. Watch this. You’re free to steal it.

“Having a portfolio when you interview has just been a game-changer for me because a lot of people show up empty-handed and they talk about what they can do and they talk about what’s on their resume. But when you apply the principles and the process to your current role as you advocate that we do, and then you create deliverables out of that. That I have something that’s tangible that I would take and discuss on interviews.

I would lead with it and I would say, “Hey, I’ve done a process flow for this or this is my approach.” If they say, “How would you approach your project?” I can say, “Hey, this is how I would do it. Here is my deliverable. Let me walk you through that.” Just having that takeaway is part of what I would say kind of helped me fast track and get to more senior positions and start getting the title of Senior Salesforce Business Analyst instead of just Business Analyst or Junior.

Laura Brandenburg: And you have moved on since then, right? You’ve changed companies, changed…actually, I’m not quite all of what has been done in the last four years. I know where you are now, but I don’t know all the past.

Toni Martin: I started off kind of as a temporary contractor, like on a short term contract, and from there I was able to move into consulting. I did a stint in consulting. I was able to move into corporate. So I was a corporate employee for a Fortune 500. Now I’m back in contracting at a Fortune 100 consulting company.

One of the things that I think it enabled me to do, the confidence in having my framework and my processes, one; it’s allowed me to, as I mentioned, have that confidence and have that tangible items to show when I interview. But two; when I go into these places, I’m always shocked to find that they don’t have systems in place and they don’t have processes. And so I become a leader because I do work off of the framework, and I do work off of a project plan, and I do bring these best practices that I’ve gotten from your materials to my role, and that’s always helped me in being a leader and rise up the ranks, and I pick up which way that I want to go in my career.

Laura Brandenburg: Right and what roles, really.

Beyond that, one of the things I’m so excited to share with everyone, too, is you’re also training other Salesforce Business Analysts. So you are a champion and a leader within the organizations that you contract with help for, but you’re also spreading this to BAs outside of your organization. Do you want to talk a little bit more about your business and what you’re doing with that?

Toni Martin: Well you definitely have been one of my inspirations to be able to take what I know as a Salesforce Business Analyst and to be able to help others with that. I always say I could never be as prolific as all the articles and the resources and the courses that you have, so I usually refer people over to your materials for this excellent foundation. I call it college caliber education that you provide. And then there’s a kind of specialized piece that we have at Salesforce Business Analysts of how do we merge these best practices with the software-specific skills.

I’ve been able to coach and mentor people as well as have my own online event, which is a Salesforce Business Analyst Virtual Summit. It’s in its third iteration for the second year. People have thanked me because a lot like I was, when I was starting out, there wasn’t a lot of information that was specific to them. The same way that I was able to find you and move forward on this path and use that to enhance my career, I’m helping to do that for other people.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and we always get great feedback on your summits and everything that you put together. You’re doing some awesome stuff.

You’re also, now, I mean I feel like there is so full circle because you also just joined our team as an instructor for Bridging the Gap. What was your interest in that or your passion for that?

Toni Martin: You know, like I said, just what you and the team have been able to do in terms of the training. Bridging the Gap, to me, is the foremost resource to become a better business analyst on the internet no matter where you are and be quality of the information with something that I wanted to be a part of, one; because I feel like I never stop learning. There were things that I knew as an instructor that I would get trained on and help to help other people understand that would reinforce what I do on a day-to-day basis.

And then, also, just giving back to the profession. Like I said, having people who do this work and who can give you feedback and who can work with you is priceless because a lot of times you don’t have that in your workplace. But even if you do, people don’t necessarily have time to take you under their wing and critique some of the things that you do. I wanted to be a person who helps you train up other BAs and to help them to master the profession so that they can experience some of the things that I’ve been able to. It totally is full circle from me going from reading your book and just being like, “Oh my goodness, Laura Brandenburg, she’s amazing. I tell everybody about her,” to being a teammate of yours has been truly full circle.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and we’re here now in 2020. We were reflecting like it was only four years ago. Part of the reason I think that timeline was relatively condensed from not just being a Senior BA but also being now a champion and a leader on your own right and within our company is because you really did have so much of that behind you. You had so much that you brought forward from before then. It’s the awareness and so there’s that piece that clicks in that can shift everything is what I’m seeing. That allows you to then move much more quickly than you probably would have otherwise.

Toni Martin: I think that but also, again, the resources that you provide both paid and free, those really short cut a lot of what you would try to figure out on your own. And I believe in availing myself of other people’s expertise. And so I was able, like I said, to purchase some of your templates and use that to create deliverables for interviews. I don’t know how long that would have taken me had I not done that. Because I had that shortened curve, I think it really supported my trajectory.

Laura Brandenburg: Any other advice for somebody looking to follow in your footsteps who thinks they might be a BA or is just exploring this path and wondering what their next step is? What would be your advice to them?

Toni Martin: There’s a great article that you have on your site about transferable skills. You talk about things that people do in their present role and their past positions that are part of what you do as a business analyst. I think if people take a look at that, if they are unsure this is the right path, I think, like me, they’ll find out that they’re doing a lot of the work already, and that they probably just need to merge their transferable skills with the actual best practices and a framework. The best way to do that, I think, and the quickest way to do that would be to sign up for at least the BA Essentials Master Class.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Anything else you want to share before we close things up?

Toni Martin: Just I would say to also, I think, try to connect with other people. I know that you’re really encouraging around people connecting and understanding that they’re not by themselves. I think it’s kind of hard when you’re embarking on this path, or again, maybe the people in your workplace are not as ambitious as you may be and not having people to talk to to encourage you. So, definitely making sure that you plug into the BA community as much as you can. I think it also is something that makes things a lot easier.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, I would agree about connecting both locally, online, virtually, wherever you can find other like-minded BAs. BAs within your company. That’s great advice.

Well, I am just so honored that you shared everything you did today and that we were able to connect. I really appreciate you sharing your story, Toni. I’m grateful that this isn’t the end for us because we partner together and you’re on the team and we’ll continue to work together and it’s been an honor and a pleasure to have you as part of what we do at Bridging the Gap. Thank you so much.

Toni Martin: Thank you, again, for kind of leading and stepping out to provide this for people because I know kind of being in the same footsteps you’re in, it’s not easy to produce and to kind of put all this together. So I just thank you for heeding that calling that you had to give back because it’s helped so many people. So thank you.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much.

But in 2017, she was ready to settle for a project coordinator role. All because she had a “gap” – she’d spent the last 6 years building her own business, an organic retail store.

If you feel like your work gap means you have to take a step back in your career or have any other sort of issue with confidence, you definitely want to listen to Julie – and allow yourself to be inspired on your journey.

Watch or read to learn:

• What led her to start her own organic cafe after many years in IT.
• Why she decided to return back to the corporate world, and the confidence challenges she faced after her career “break”.
• How she ultimately landed a business analyst role.
• How once she got on her way, she landed the most challenging work and delivered many successful projects.
• The critical investment she made that helped her get her confidence back and how that saved her from frustration at settling for a lesser role.

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome. I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap and I’m here today with Julie Ayres from Hearth in Western Australia. Hi Julie.

Julie Ayres: Hi Laura. So good to meet you.

Laura Brandenburg: I’m so excited to do this as well. Julie had commented on one of our recent online trainings about her results with the BA Essentials Masters Class. It was quite a few years ago, actually that you participated in it. But I’m so grateful that you wanted to share a little bit of your story and your transition plan and your path in business analysis, so thank you.

Julie Ayres: Absolutely. Looking forward to it.

Laura Brandenburg: If you could just take us back to where you were before you chose to invest in the course. I know you were running a business and trying to return back to corporate work. Tell us the story of before.

Julie Ayres: I’ve been in IT for many years through lots of different roles. I got to a point in my career where looking back now, I can see that I was probably burnt out but I had lost the passion for what I was doing. It was one of those seriously wake up one day and I’m going to open an organic store and café. I had no idea where it came from, but it was obviously in my subconscious there for a while.

A number of things started lining up for me, so I was actually made redundant from my role. They were moving the office from Perth to Sydney and I wasn’t interested in moving interstate to the other side of Australia. So I opened up an organic store and café. I got a period of seven years. The store was open for six years. That was my passion, but it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my whole entire life.

Laura Brandenburg: I think retail is like; God, anything with brick and mortar just terrifies me from a business perspective.

Julie Ayres: Yeah, particularly there was a massive transition in the retail industry because online shopping hadn’t taken off. It was just starting and I couldn’t get everything in place to move quickly enough with the different shopping trends. So, unfortunately, I had to close the store down. I probably left it too long to make that decision and didn’t use all my analysis skills throughout running a business. Probably used more emotional which you pay a price, I learned a lot. I found myself without a job and I had a lot of debt from closing the shop. I wasn’t able to sell it. I started looking at what I could get back into in terms of IT.

There were probably three roles that I was looking for – project management, project management office administrator, and business analyst roles. The business analyst roles, in particular, appealed to me. I had never been called a business analyst in my role and I would like to come back to that later on because I learned a valuable lesson on one of your tips. I started applying for those three areas.

I’ve always had a passion for analysis and really enjoy that aspect of it. I’ve done project management work. I probably didn’t feel confident getting back into that arena after so long out of it. And then I probably started selling myself short by looking at being a PM administrator. Maybe that was my kind of comfort where I was starting off where I was well and truly qualified to do that work and I thought, possibly, that’s where I could start and then move on.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s what happens often when people take a career break. They assume they need to step back instead of bringing forward. You ran a business and you had this IT experience. So often you can re-position it as more of a laddering and an evolution as opposed to this retreat.

Julie Ayres: Confidence. I’m a very confident person, but I did not have my confidence. That’s probably what drove that.

When you look at business analyst roles, I think we mentioned this before, there’s so much breadth to the business analysts’ role so when you actually start looking at different positions available, that can also tend for you maybe not to focus there because you can get traditional BA roles. I’m much more systems focused, but that’s purely because of my experience and my background. I started off in computer programming many years ago and then moved through to systems analyst.

I think that can be daunting as well because it doesn’t have one ID; it’s got many descriptions and you might start looking at some and think that you are just not qualified or you don’t have the experience, but there’s so much breadth in that area that you need to keep looking and keep asking questions.

What I did do, and I am very grateful for, is I found your website. I closed my business in July 2016. I started work March 2017. I probably should have looked back on the dates. It was early 2017 that I picked up on your course. But before that, I had been reading through your website.

What resonated with me was it was so approachable. It was easy to read. I didn’t feel daunted in any way. The more I read, the more I knew I was doing the right thing by following what you were saying, your recommendations.

Doing the course back then was a really hard decision for me to make because I had very limited financial resources. I was getting the, we call it the dole. It’s a shocking name, but it’s payments from the government. I hated doing that. That was horrible, but I had to have some money coming in. It was a difficult decision, but I felt like it was the right decision. I took the option of doing the materials only and working on it through home. Once I had made the decision, I was comfortable that I had done the right thing.

Once I started work, a little bit of a story in there as well. I had applied for many roles. I also was applying for a lot more government roles which had never been; like I’d done government consulting work before, but I had never really aimed to work for the government. But, again, it was all about security after being very insecure for many years. I thought that this would be a nice, safe, secure environment for me to work in. I probably wasted some time on applications because now I’m not in that area. I’m so glad I didn’t take a government role.

I applied for a project management administrator with a small consulting firm. I didn’t actually know how small and I didn’t realize a startup as well. I glossed over that. In the conversation in the interview that I had, he actually read a lot more into what I was capable of doing and he offered me a business analyst role. I was like, “Yes. This is excellent.” And then went home and freaked out, like, how am I going to do this? But I had all my material from your course so that gave me confidence; that gave me something that was there and tangible. I knew I could do this work, but I just had to build my confidence up.

Laura Brandenburg: Just to have that reference tool of this is what I’m supposed to be doing. The class, specifically, that you took is the BA Essentials Masters Class which walks you through the 8-step process.

Julie Ayres: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: I can see kind of that referring back to, “What do I do next?” Or I think I should be doing this, but just having that reference tool to confirm, too. Was that your experience? I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

Julie Ayres: That was definitely it. And it was also, for me too, terminology. I’d been talking about food and health and organics and all of that for so many years that I was really concerned that I’m going to a session or a meeting and I wouldn’t know what terminology to use. This is just my self-doubt, which is in hindsight a bit ridiculous. That was seriously what I was going through and it was quite a lot for me even though I am a confident person. That was quite hard to overcome and get back in. But once I got on my way, I landed the most challenging program work. It was crazy and I was a cross between five and seven different projects and working for a not-for-profit organization where I didn’t have a lot of funding and a lot of money, so I’m not a big corporate. So, yeah, I was stretched in every direction.

Laura Brandenburg: So you were in a small consulting company but consulting for a nonprofit?

Julie Ayres: Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: What were some of the projects like?

Julie Ayres: The not-for-profit was a cross aged care, disability, mental health, and youth services. A community services organization. They had, in some cases, quite old systems. In some cases, nice systems. The program covered going out to tender for human resources, the community services kind of system that would manage their funding and service provision of aged care and the other services that I mentioned.

Records management, finance. Payroll was the only system they weren’t touching, but we ended up re-implementing and re-configuring their payroll system. They needed an award interpreter. We need those in Australia to manage paying people correctly, the right kind of allowances for overtime and things like that. We need an award interpreter.

A new internet, revived internet, and website content management system. And then they also wanted a business intelligence tool and I wanted to do that all at once.

My responsibilities as the BA was we started off with the company that I was working with came from an oil and gas background, which was like completely 180 degrees to what we were working with. And they had methodologies that they were used to working with and terminology that they were used to working with. It was different from what I had been exposed to, and back then I was like, oh my goodness, is this the way people talk nowadays? The new terminology I now understand was industry-specific and I have since, my last project, that I’ve just finished was oil and gas and they speak the language. Once I identified that, I felt a lot more secure in going back to the material that you had provided that was like, yes; this is how people talk and just the project manager and the program director were just speaking oil and gas.

We needed to do solution scope and work requirements definition, attend the documentation, the vendor and systems evaluation, the testing, configuration, and the implementation. When you look at that across all of the systems that I mentioned, it was an amazing amount of work to do.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and you were there for three or four years?

Julie Ayres: No. I was there for 18 months and then provided support once I finished. There was a lot of data migration and systems integration work that I also had to do as well.

Laura Brandenburg: What was a day in the life of that like?

Julie Ayres: Well, for starters, their offices were at the back of our town, which is kind of on the outskirts of Hearth and you almost feel like you’re in rural country. That was like a 45-minute drive for me and you felt like you were out in the sticks, like it was surrounded by bush. That, in itself, was very different. The people we were working with were amazing. I think if you haven’t worked in the community services sector before or the human services sector before, it is quite an eye-opener that these people are out there supporting us with disability, with aged care. So that was quite different for me. The people themselves were unsophisticated in terms of technology and, I guess, computer literacy, not in any other ways. I’m not demeaning them, but just not a lot of technology focus.

A typical day for me in that environment was often a number of sessions across a number of those projects. Looking back now, I’m very proud of what I achieved and I don’t know whether it was the seven years out of IT or the absolute need to make this work because it was my re-entry back into the workforce. But I make myself, I was able to walk out of one session and mentally prepare myself to walk into another session on a completely different project sometimes back to back or with half an hour in between. So, I’m quite proud of myself in being able to achieve that. I think that with my strength I could just mentally gather myself and prepare myself for the next project.

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like you just kind of jumped in and started running. Is that how it felt, too?

Julie Ayres: Oh yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Because you’re a consultant. It’s not like they’re like, “Oh, take next month to ramp up.” You need to go in and be effective day one.

Julie Ayres: I guess that same hope, what I keep referring to which is try to build my confidence was I had…that was always like snapping at my heels, like, you need to do these right. It wasn’t I was working for a new company. I was re-entering the workforce and working for this new client. It was by no means easy, but the people I was working with, they were really great. They were very supportive.

Yeah, I actually just lost myself in work for quite some time. And maybe I needed that because I found it quite difficult closing down my business. So, I think there was a lot of angst in what not with that. To have this complete mind shift and to have something, a project that was all-consuming was probably quite therapeutic for me.

Laura Brandenburg: We do, as I mentioned, kind of before we got started, we get a lot of questions from people who have some sort of break. You weren’t really on break. You were running a business. But, who feel like they have this gap between working in IT or doing business analysis, or doing something like that, and then coming back. What advice would you give to somebody who’s at that moment that you were between 2016 and 2017 trying to figure out what their next step is and how to get back into the workforce after a break like that?

Julie Ayres: I guess you need to work on the self-doubt and confidence because don’t let that hold you back. As I mentioned before, and I’m not trying to sell you, but I am actually extremely grateful that you were there with the tools and the words and the approachability because that really did help me. Even just recently, like I’m in a position now where the last project to finish, and I need to look for work, even reading through your tips for comparing your resume; even something as simple as this one article that talks about looking at your CV and the role and the positions that you held previously that you can actually, without, you’re not, you’re actually renaming them. That was a massive eye-opener for me and probably I must have missed that article; I don’t know if it’s recent. I missed that three years ago because when I looked at my CV I was using roles that I was given in the company that could be not meaningless to other people, but could be a myriad of different roles in other organizations.

So, I was, actually, National Manager of Web Application which sounds really fancy. But I was very hands-on in that role. But when I read your article just recently, I’ve changed that now to Web Applications Manager. I think I changed it to Business Analyst/Web Applications Manager or something like that. Because I did a lot of BA work, but I didn’t recognize it at the time.

I guess for people that haven’t done that role before, you just really need to look at what you have done and what you can bring to the table without, I guess, kind of getting caught up in the ad that you’re looking at. It might be very structured and use the right terminology, but when you really sit down and think hard, and I had to do that just recently last week, and I also had to do that quite often three years ago. And you start unpacking what you had done and what you can bring to the table, you are quite surprised that you inherently, probably, have the skills and some experience. I don’t know if that’s the answer to your question.

Laura Brandenburg: I think that’s great advice. Really owning your skills and your aptitudes and the experiences that you’ve had.

I’d like to add to that, and it sounds like this was your experience, the business analysis experience you had was still relevant. That six-year gap of maybe you weren’t doing as much IT-related business analysis because you were running your business, but you were still able to hit the ground running with a bit of a refresh in terms of the course.

It’s kind of like riding a bike. It comes back.

Julie Ayres: Yes. Or horse, because I love riding horses. I very often ride. You get back on that horse.

Laura Brandenburg: I don’t know that I’m that good at a horse, but I would like to get on it and feel comfortable after a few minutes. But yes, I can appreciate that.

Is there anything else that you would like to share?

Julie Ayres: For other people, just believe in yourself and have confidence in yourself. It’s not easy to, if you have been out of work for a while or you’ve been in a different environment, it is quite challenging, particularly, I think in IT where it’s quite a fast-paced industry. Terminology changes and methodology gets me quite often. Even back then, and particularly now, everyone’s looking for agile BAs and I don’t have it. My methodology is old-fashioned, waterfall and people have moved away from that.

Again, that’s probably another factor to consider is rather than putting it out there that these old-fashioned methodologies are kind of reworded the way, and I also talked about in my cover letter, that I can pick out things quite quickly in methodologies.

When you get down to it, a methodology is a methodology. It is a guideline for you to work within your tools. But, yeah, you can pick different methodologies. I’m still not sure how to get into the agile work, but maybe I don’t need to be.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, I think the enterprise experience you have with all those different tools and those major projects, that is going to be very appealing.

Julie Ayres: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Final question. I did not appreciate or know the significance of the investment that you made when you made it until you shared it in this interview. But I mean it was a significant financial investment at the time and just wanted to say thank you for that. And for yourself, too, like the investment that you made in yourself.

Where do you think you would be if you had made a different decision and not made that investment?

Julie Ayres: I could have ended up being, and I don’t want to demean the role, but I could have ended up in project administration and being quite frustrated because I was capable of a lot more. And maybe that would have been seen, or maybe that would not have been appreciated because you have to be quite careful in a company when you do take on a roll and you stick within your role to some degree. But it definitely gave me the confidence to move forward.

And I seriously, I drove home all the way from that office in Midvale, got on my computer at home, pulled up like the course material and like I can do this, like, just read through it. I can do this. I was responsible for doing…I didn’t do all of those requirements because of all those projects that we had a lot of SMEs, or subject matter experts that it would be their responsibility. But some of them were poorly, like very poorly written.

And I did ask every time and looked up requirements definitions. So, yeah, it just gave me confidence and a level of comfort that I really needed at the time. I am also grateful because I realize that BA work is absolutely, I love doing business analysis work and working in this environment even though there are so many different aspects to it. My story is more about systems and probably working on systems and implementing new systems. Other people have this, like we were saying, it’s so much breadth to the roles. But yeah, I’m loving what I’m doing.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome.

Julie Ayres: I’m going to try really hard to do The Blueprint course. I’m quite excited about that because I think that will also help me because that starts getting down to probably not the step by step through the process, but the tools and the skills and I might have some of them, but it’s going to definitely help me get some depth to them.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing that, Julie. I’m so excited to see where you go and where you land next.

Julie Ayres: I’ll be in touch.

Laura Brandenburg: Alright. Thank you.

Julie Ayres: Thank you so much, Laura.

In this interview, you’ll discover:

• How important it was to decide he was a business analyst – which started with updating his job title in his email signature, and why he had the confidence to do this.
• How Manuel transitioned into the ServiceNow space specifically.
• What Manuel’s role is like as a ServiceNow Business Analyst on an agile software development team.
• What being a business analyst means to Manuel, in terms of his day-to-day experience and fulfillment in his work.

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome, everyone! I’m here today with Manuel Ninapaitan. Hi, Manuel. How are you?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Pretty good. Thank you.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much for joining me today and being willing to share a bit about your story. We were just recalling you were a Blueprint participant back in 2018 in the Spring Session when we were interviewing. This is 2020, the beginning of the year. So about two years later.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Correct.

Laura Brandenburg: But can you kind of take us back to – and you’ve accomplished quite a few things since that time and I’m really excited to share your story with our community. Can you just take us back to where you were maybe in 2018 or late 2017, kind of where you were in your career and what you were looking for?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Well, prior to 2018, I was pretty much working as a QA Analyst/Tier 3 Tech Support technician. My intention was to eventually progress to a more BA minor position. This is the reason why I took these two courses – The Business Analyst Blueprint® and Business Process Analysis. Business Process Analysis was the first one I remember. The Blueprint came second.

Laura Brandenburg: Gotcha.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Progressing in the two courses, eventually, I got a chance to transition to a different project with my old manager. I would say February 2018 I had to replace somebody who was leaving the organization. So around that time is when I was done with the two courses and as I mentioned to you before is I’ve decided to embrace, that’s a term I like to use, I decided to embrace the role as a BA because before I was a little reluctant. Okay, should I do this? Should I present myself as a BA or not?

But at that point in my life, I said you know what, this is what I’m going to do. And believe it or not, it changed a lot of things in the way I started looking at my job and my duties. And believe it or not, if you believe this is what you are, you are a new BA, people will start looking at you differently too. People will start looking at you a different way. It was very interesting for me to have that before and after.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s amazing. It was like you deciding, “this is who I am.”

Manuel Ninapaitan: Exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: Did your title change or did anything change externally related to this, or was it really just that you were approaching your work from a BA mindset?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Not only I start approaching my work from a BA mindset, but again, I decided to change my email signature. So I removed part of my old signature; my old signature before. It was a Business Analyst/QA. I kept it like that and that carried me on through the entire project and it just felt different.

Laura Brandenburg: Your job title didn’t change, but you changed your signature.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Somehow my job title getting changed, per se, my signature changed but also the way I approach it, my tasks, my everyday task for the project it changed completely. So I wasn’t just…

Laura Brandenburg: Do you have an example of that where you were doing QA but you started to approach it as a business analyst?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Sure. Something that we used to have regular meetings with stakeholders for this project. It was just asking those questions, okay, what is it that you need? Not just what is it that you need, but at least, what is it that we can do to make this job more efficient? Because we are going for one particular version of software to a new one. In that sense, I wanted to know okay, how can we do this better for next time? How can we update the applications? You need to go to this guy. You need the section which is actually in charge of publishing official documentation for this organization to send it outside.

So this is how it started and then somehow we collect – they were able to tell me exactly what they wanted, what is it that we don’t need. Long story short, not only were we able to save some money but just produce the products they wanted. After that, it progressed towards the completion of the project. So everybody was…I would say they were satisfied we were able to deliver.

Almost at the end, before I left, I had a conversation with my manager saying, “You know what, I can see you have what it takes to be a BA.” It’s something he never mentioned before. All that contributed to where I am right now.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. Did that open up an actual opportunity in that job or was it the next job where you were kind of officially doing business analysis?

Manuel Ninapaitan: I made some changes to my LinkedIn profile. I put my title as a BA. I updated my latest job description, what I was doing. Out of the many offers I had, this one came from a recruiter from this company who said, “We’ve seen your portfolio. You have this particular skill. Would you be interested?” That’s how it started. We had three job interviews. I landed the job that I have right now.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. What’s your title?

Manuel Ninapaitan: My title is ServiceNow Business Analyst.

Laura Brandenburg: Great. Did you have experience in ServiceNow before that?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Yes. I used ServiceNow very heavily before, sort of a fulfiller role for users. I knew the ins and outs of ServiceNow platform, so that helped me a lot, too.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s where we see a lot of times especially when people are moving into their first role. Leveraging and expertise like that. Maybe a power user end or industry…whatever that is can help you get that first official role, so to speak.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: Tell us a little bit about your role.

Right now, what I’m working on is for big implementation for ServiceNow for this federal agency. All the federal organizations are grabbing ServiceNow as a platform where they can actually have a lot of components.

We are in the process right now of implementing piece by piece this…we just finished one sprint a couple of weeks ago. We have a new one now. We just went through a user story, finishing epics, and all that. It’s very interesting. Every day, something new is just an amazing opportunity to learn. It’s just one after another, one after another. Right now, working towards ServiceNow certification. Hopefully, it will happen in the next week or so. We’ll see.

It’s just amazing because on top of that is this team was looking for three BAs. They already had two. They didn’t want more because before all interactions with the stakeholders was primarily done with the developers. We’re bridging the gap right there.

Laura Brandenburg: How has your Blueprint coursework played into all of this?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Well, it kind of refined my attention to detail. The ability to ask the right questions to get information we need and to guide the stakeholders in a certain direction because they can suggest or request something, but we tell them, “How about if we approach it this way instead?” You still get the same response but we’re going to save you some time, some extra clicks, etc. You have to have the ability to convince the stakeholder, yeah, this is what we can do instead. They can say, “Yeah, sure, let’s work it out.”

Laura Brandenburg: Really understanding not just what they want but their business process and their business needs.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Not only business process, but the language they speak. Every organization has its own language and you get to learn what terms are best, what is it that they do, what are the acronyms and stuff like that. You understand what way to go.

Laura Brandenburg: You mentioned doing user stories, so functional requirements still a big piece of how we’re going to configure ServiceNow or do you do customizations to Service Now as part of the implementation?

Manuel Ninapaitan: The customization is done by the development team based on the stories we provide. In that sense, I’m getting better writing very concise stories. What is the shortest acceptance criteria and all that so when they’re looking at it, they say, oh, I see what they want to do? It’s very specific so with the other BAs working with me, they tell me, okay, we need to refine this part. This is fine. And so once the story’s good, we upload it to ServiceNow. There’s a section there for Service as well and that goes to the person; the person to work on that to have the first prototype and Sandbox, the UAT. If UAT passes, then it goes to production.

Laura Brandenburg: You’re helping define with that customization.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Pretty much the whole cycle.

Laura Brandenburg: And I would imagine the data modeling piece too, right? Do you have data migrations?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Yeah, they have data migrations, which is done at the developer site and then we have a UX person with the markups, with the wireframes so when we meet with somebody we can tell, okay, this is how it pretty much looks like, this is what you want, etc. It’s a very important piece as well. A lot of people like to see what it looks like or how it tends to look and feel. That also helps.

Laura Brandenburg: Not every BA team has a UX designer. Sometimes you’re doing that and sometimes you’re collaborating with them. So, it’s always interesting to hear how those roles change up.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Exactly. We had a UX person right there.

Laura Brandenburg: What do you like most about being a business analyst?

Manuel Ninapaitan: I think I don’t get bored. That’s the first thing I can tell you. There is something going on there some days and I’m, okay, you’re just burning up my gas. How can I do this? There are some challenging days. We have some challenging days; we have the stakeholders who sometimes we have to chase them until they get back to you. There are some requirements that are really tricky. But then there are some days when things are rolling through and, basically, it’s just I will constantly be on my toes and, as I said before, I don’t get bored. There’s something new going on.

Laura Brandenburg: What has that meant to you going from QA to business analysis?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Basically to expand horizons and things especially since I’m getting more interested in the ServiceNow platform. I want to retain my BA background but eventually progress towards a more advanced station in ServiceNow profession.

Laura Brandenburg: Like a consultant almost?

Manuel Ninapaitan: Eventually. We’ll see if that works out later. But right now my task is just absorbing as much knowledge as possible of ServiceNow from the administration side and later for implementation side and perhaps the development side as well. Because this is progress growth. It sounds like I’m pitching this program right now. It’s not that. But again, all that while keeping my BA background information, which I think is going to help a lot.

Laura Brandenburg: What would you recommend to people looking to follow in your footsteps who are kind of back where you are and if you were able, maybe, it sounds like you’re kind of ready for a change, maybe for something new. What would you recommend to them to do next?

Manuel Ninapaitan: If you see yourself as a person who likes to solve problems; if you’re somebody who is curious about, you’re always asking questions, probing questions in the role you have whether it is for QA or something similar, I would say you might be slowly, slowly inching towards a BA arena. Based on my experience, if you’re doubtful about seeing yourself as a BA, jump on it.

Just go for it and say, you know what, I am a BA now. Don’t wait for an official title. Don’t wait for an official role because chances are what you do is pretty much towards BA territory. If you feel like that, just embrace it and your mindset is going to change.

Laura Brandenburg: For you, if you hadn’t chosen to invest in a program, like The Business Analyst Blueprint®, where do you think you would be today?

Manuel Ninapaitan: I don’t know. I’d probably be still doing QA, which is not bad, but I needed something more. That was an investment that I decided to take for myself and take the risk, basically, and see how that works out. It doesn’t say an opportunity was knocking at my door, maybe and didn’t realize it in the beginning, but then you know what, I’ll go for it. I did that and I don’t regret it. I mean I’ll do that again.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Anything else you’d like to share?

Manuel Ninapaitan: No. I just want to thank you for the opportunity that you gave us for taking these courses and just for really boosting our careers. Your guidance, your work, and your enthusiasm is really amazing. Believe me; you have done such amazing work in that sense.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much for that. I love to be able to celebrate stories like yours because you made the investment. You chose to go. That mindset shift piece that you shared, that is just gold for anyone listening in. I’m glad you shared that a couple of separate times because it seems like it’s too good to be true, but I just get to change my mind. But it’s really how things happen, how change happens, and it’s the easiest thing to do and the hardest thing to do.

Manuel Ninapaitan: It is.

Laura Brandenburg: I just want to commend you for that.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Exactly. You have to just make a jump. You have to do it. There’s no other way.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that and I can’t wait to share this with the community.

Manuel Ninapaitan: Thank you very much, Laura. I appreciate your time.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

Watch or read to learn how Lane:

• Proved the value of business analysis by analyzing a complex business process.
• Discovered that business analysis was her favorite aspect of work, and found more ways to bring it forward in her role.
• Made the move from Donor Management to Business Analysis, and the host of transferable skills she brought forward with her.
• The types of projects a larger non-profit organization has happening, and how they need business analysis skill sets.
• Successfully navigates a remote, work-from-home business as a business analyst.

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome. I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap. Today we’re with Lane Malone from Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Hi Lane.

Lane Malone: Hey, how are you?

Laura Brandenburg: Good, good. So grateful for you to be here today and share a little bit with us about your BA career journey. I know you recently moved into a new business analyst position and so grateful that you have agreed to share more about that.

Lane Malone: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

Laura Brandenburg: Do you want to take us back, maybe, to where you were in your career? What were you doing most recently and whatever you can share where you’re working and what the situation was there before you got into that BA position?

Lane Malone: At the time, I was in a role supporting the National Multiple Sclerosis Society on the Individual Giving Donor Experience Team and this was an interesting tangent in my nonprofit career because for the prior 14 years, I had been doing a ton of direct donor engagement and fundraising to support mission-based organizations.

I was ready for a change and wanted to return to my more operational capacity building roots from early in my career. But the way that I got involved with Bridging the Gap was funny. I literally stumbled into it.

I saw a need in our organization for a visual tool for a process flow diagram and I was searching on line thinking, “I haven’t done this kind of thing in a really long time.” I’m sure we’ve moved far beyond the very elementary software that we used to have.

So I was searching for process diagrams, BPM, the business modeling process and Bridging the Gap came up pretty high on the list. Somewhere in your information it referred to Microsoft Visio, and I realized, wow, we have Microsoft Visio as part of our National MS Society Enterprise scale contract with Microsoft. So I’ve got the tool.

Then I saw one of the blog posts that referred to something like 42 reasons you might want to consider a business analyst career. I got distracted and I ran through that list and literally there were only three or four out of the 42 that didn’t 100% apply to me, but the other 38 did.

So I simultaneously started down the road of using Visio for the project that I needed to work on and started exploring the Bridging the Gap resources and just found a wealth of information on the website and realized that my employer offers funding for certain professional development opportunities. I was able to leverage that and enthusiastically signed up for the Business Process Analysis course and the BA Essentials Master Class.

Laura Brandenburg: At that point you decided you wanted to pursue a business analysis career?

Lane Malone: Exactly. I didn’t realize there was such a thing. But I knew that many of the transferable skills involved leveraged the parts of my career and the activities that I always loved the most. So this was an opportunity to get back to those roots and to build more competence and be more current and have a language and a framework that I could share with other people so they would understand the value of what I could bring to these projects.

Laura Brandenburg: Right, because if I understand, you were doing fundraising. Were you actively soliciting donations?

Lane Malone: I had been for about 14 years, but a lot of that work was done in smaller organizations before I came to work for the National MS Society. In those small organizations, I was a one person development shop. I had to do all of the logistics, the marketing, the PR, and the actual donor engagement and solicitation. I was always forced to, as quickly as possible, create good systems, analyze processes, and enhance what’s going on because I didn’t have extra resources.

I had to squeeze every little bit out of what I had, but the majority of my work, the metrics upon which my success was based was strictly revenue and that’s a particular kind of stress that can be very rewarding and very helpful for the organization. But it’s particular kind of stress after 14 years that I didn’t want to manage anymore because I felt that while I was good at it, it wasn’t leveraging my true strengths. When I read that list of 42 items, I thought, “Wow, this would be my happy place.”

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. I love it. Wanting to leverage the strengths and already I can tell you we’re starting to see this is new role or a new path, but I have a lot to bring with me, like you had a lot to bring with you.

What were some of the strengths that you felt that you had?

Lane Malone: Well, it’s interesting. Every employee for the Society does the Clifton Strengths Finder and my five signature strengths are learner, input, maximizer, connectedness, and a ranger. That combination of things in the strategic domain and in the relationship domain, it creates a mix that really fits well with the requirements of a business analyst role, and especially the learner and maximize part. I am just hard wired to want to take something that’s good and make it even better.

Laura Brandenburg: Gotcha. That’s a great attribute for a business analyst.

Now, you are now in a formal business analyst’s role, right?

Lane Malone: Well, I am in that not with the title as such. My title is a manager title, but the job description, the whole role is completely new and it’s intended; I had been doing some work that was more operational logistics and event support for donor engagement events.

In this completely new role, it’s all focused on using specialized business analysis skills, which the leaders of our team knew I was formalizing through my Bridging the Gap coursework, to optimize the business processes, the systems, and the analytics to help enhance donor engagement and increase revenue.

Laura Brandenburg: You said not the business analyst title, but very much the business analyst responsibility in a promotion to a manager title. Is that right?

Lane Malone: Yes, and it’s a role that is much more cross functional because we’re in the midst of not one, but two, enterprise scale software transitions at the Society. One is our CRM and the other is the ERP for the finance side of the house.

So, a big piece of my new job description is helping optimize that CRM environment and nail down the business process requirements and plans in concert with my colleagues on the CRM team, the IT folks, who are doing all the architecture, the technical side of it. This is very much an analyst role focused on business process improvements, not the technical side of things, which is a good fit for me because I don’t have the IT background, and I’m not sure yet whether I want to go down that road anyway.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and you don’t have to. But you would be working with those IT analysts, right?

Lane Malone: I have been, very closely. And I’m learning a lot about…in fact, the Bridging the Gap coursework that I had helped expose me to some of the language of that part of business analysis, so when I’m hearing user stories and they’re talking about wireframes and agile and sprints and things like that, I wouldn’t have been familiar with any of it had I not had the coursework from Bridging the Gap.

Laura Brandenburg: You mentioned that this was a new role kind of created for you. How did that come to be?

Lane Malone: It was one of those things where I volunteered for something. I saw a need. There is a very complicated process involved in managing restricted giving. When people say, “I want to contribute $100,000 to the National MS Society, but I’m most passionate about and committed to this particular project,” research, let’s say, there are a whole bunch of cross-functional stakeholder steps in communication and documentation that needs to happen from the moment that the relationship starts with that major gift officer, who is potentially going to solicit Mr. Jones all the way until the audit happens at the end of the fiscal year.

That complicated process had been documented in a spreadsheet that was very complicated and was trying to stuff a nonlinear process into certain boxes. I just remembered thinking, okay; this documentation might make the auditors happy in the long run.

When I was asked to cut and paste a bunch of data in that big spreadsheet because somebody had corrupted the file and I had to restore it from a backup, that’s when I got a look at it and I thought, “Yikes, this is not a user-friendly tool,” other than being able to check the box and say that the auditor, we have a process. The staff can’t use it. It’s just not useful.

I immediately could visualize it in terms of a process flow diagram or some kind of graphic tool. That’s when I went looking for software that I could use that was more sophisticated than when I had done 20 years ago when I first played around with this. I volunteered; I really stuck my neck out because at the time I didn’t know how to use Visio. But I looked at it long enough. I played around with it. I went to my boss and said, “We really need a visual tool if we’re going to truly fine tune this process and then be able to implement it consistently over time and across functions. I can create a draft diagram. How about if I do that? And then could you pull me into this larger stakeholder group and allow me to show them that and solicit their input and see where that goes.” And she said, “Wow, that would be great.”

I ended that meeting and thought, “Oh boy. I guess I better learn how to use this tool really fast.” And I was able to. It’s amazingly user friendly considering how sophisticated it is. That tool; that was the beginning of the whole process. That helped people visualize it. It helped raise additional questions, and so on and so forth. And it went from a single diagram into a multi-tab Visio document with about 12 different sub processes.

It’s a huge piece of work that a very smart and engaged team of people helped me illustrate. It’s now published on the Society’s internet and can be used in training and on-boarding new staff and will be the foundation upon which the integration of that restricted giving business process in to the new workday ERP will be based.

Laura Brandenburg: How did that lead to this new role?

Lane Malone: I think it was the combination of leadership, seeing that I had a really solid foundation of skills, being willing to invest in the further training, and then the convergence of that with the need. Because we recently completely restructured the individual giving team of 33 people or so and really needed some clarity on a lot of different functions and processes.

Laura Brandenburg: Essentially, you demonstrated the value of that kind of work and then they’re like, we want some more of this.

Lane Malone: Exactly. Yes.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. At what point did your coursework come into play with this?

Lane Malone: I kind of pushed it along right as those projects began. As I got pulled into the restricted giving process, I was already in the queue and talking to you about registering for the classes and getting that all on board and getting it confirmed.

They asked me when I was able to demonstrate enough value and some deliverables in that restricted giving process, then I was asked to take on the, they called it the tax receding process. Of course, I flipped that around and said, “The receding made your gifts process.”

There was another piece and those things just kept falling my way and I was a veracious learner and really wanted to take it on.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome.

Lane Malone: Continue to expand.

Laura Brandenburg: Great. I love how you just dove in and made it happen and didn’t let the tools or the skills or all of those things get in your way.

You did mention, before we got on, that you really did appreciate some of the aspects of the course. What really stood out to you? You took both our BA Essentials and our Business Process kind of side-by-side.

Lane Malone: I did.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s a bit unusual. We usually suggest people do one at a time, but you were very adamant that you wanted them both together.

Lane Malone: Yeah, and I think it was because I liked that the BA Essentials really looked at the big picture context of the whole process including the stakeholder engagement and navigating lines of communication and establishing expectations and credibility and buy-in and so forth.

And then the Business Analysis class really dug in to the details of how do you do the analysis part of it, as well as some of the other components as well, but it was very much kind of macro and micro option. I liked that there were both the combination of video and transcripts because depending upon the day and my energy level, sometimes I want one, and sometimes I like having the documentation.

A lot of great templates so you never feel like you’re starting something from scratch. And then knowing that there were opportunities for questions and coaching with the instructors, if needed, and at the end, getting the feedback specifically on the workbook was great. It always felt like I had plenty of support.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s great to hear. Thank you for all of that. Thank you. I’m kind of curious to hear about how the new role is going now – what kind of projects you’re working on and how it’s off to a good start.

Lane Malone: It is. Once we got past the transition, you know how those things go. You’re still doing part of your old job description while you’re taking on the new job description. Now that I’m fully into the new position, it’s been really fun and interesting.

I’ve been pulled in as a co-lead on a project to clarify and document all the business processes for the individual giving and foundation relations team using the new Salesforce CRM and even pulling together the project charter for that and really thinking through what are the deliverables? What is in and out of scope? A lot of the coursework was rattling around in my head as we were trying to make those decisions and to be firm and clear with leadership that here are some of the risks involved, and these are some of the dependencies that we’ll have to address down the road. That was really useful information.

I’ll be involved in a couple of other major projects, but the one that’s noteworthy is we are in the process of adopting a new project management software tool to help manage some of these donor engagement events. We’ll have 27 events going on concurrently. While I’ll no longer be involved in the logistics and the marketing of those, I’ve been asked to help select a tool that does not involve any significant investment of money or commitment in the short run, but I’ve had to figure out, what are the requirements? What do we need that project management tool to do and how should we set it up and we’ve ended up using as part of the Atlassian package that the IT team uses.

And it’s not, intuitively, a great fit for the individual giving team because a lot of that framework is based around IT projects. So the whole concept of sprints and so forth is not intuitive and yet working with a colleague on the IT team who’s much more familiar with it, she was able to take the requirements that I pulled together with input from our team and configure our data in that system so that it will work for us. We will have sort of the GANTT chart view and the boards and be able to track resources and deadlines and so forth.

That’s been really interesting process as well.

Laura Brandenburg: And save your company a ton of money of investing in another separate tool by being clear on what your requirements were and that it could get merged into that.

One other thing, you had mentioned this before we started and I forgot to drill in to it yet. You are lucky enough to work from home. People always ask me how that works as a BA and how you get started in remote work. Do you have any tips or aspects that you can share around that? I’m assuming it wasn’t something that started with this BA role. This had been something you’d been doing prior.

Lane Malone: Correct. Part of it, in this situation, wasn’t within my control. It was really an organizational shift because in 2012 – 2014 there was an opportunity for me to work for the National MS Society in a planned giving role, so in fundraising. I was so excited to do it and it was based in the Denver office. For various reasons, in those two years, it didn’t evolve to where it made sense for our family to relocate because, of course, you’ve always got your spouse and your children and you have to put all that together. After two years of commuting weekly…

Laura Brandenburg: That’s six hours, right, if I remember?

Lane Malone: Seven hours round trip on dry roads and two mountain passes between Steamboat Springs and Denver. It was not sustainable. It was a risk on many levels to be doing that kind of driving and time away from family. So I reluctantly resigned after two years and refocused my professional work back to Steamboat with fundraising for an organization here.

In 2017, I was very intentionally making a shift realizing I’m 20 years in on my career. I really want to be leveraging my true strengths. I was just starting to try to figure out what they were and then this position with the Society came up that was supporting the Donor Experience team mostly in terms of event support and reporting and logistics and operations. It wasn’t the ideal job for me by any means.

It was a step down several levels, but it’s an organization I cared deeply about with a mission that matters to our family and beyond. I realized that during those three years when I wasn’t working for the Society, they had done a massive organizational realignment to a more matrix structure and all of this technology with Go-To Meeting and Skype and so forth, had really taken off and become very effective and they realized that one of the best ways to attract and retain the right people for the right positions is to have some level of flexibility where needed.

Because I had already worked for the Society, I was sort of a known entity and I was able to come back and be based full-time from my home office, more specifically, as a BA, it works really well as long as you have the skills and understanding that I’ve recently obtained from Bridging the Gap, to be very intentional and disciplined about how you frame some of the conversations, especially those that you lead, and even as a participant, because so much of the work is done online through webcam and learning to be very nimble in whatever your process flow software might be – Visio or something else – is helpful because you can share your screen and, literally, diagram things on the fly.

Then on occasion, it’s been necessary and justified for me to travel and meet for kickoff meetings and discovery sessions for the second phase of our CRM process, for example. It completely made sense for me to go down and meet with the different stakeholders involved and with a third party consulting group that was really managing, they were serving in the official BA role, and I was more a stakeholder with BA experience, but being a person with those people, that made a lot of sense. Now I’m continuing to participate in that work through online web conference meetings and so forth.

Laura Brandenburg: So having that blend at the beginning makes a lot of sense.

Lane Malone: It’s very doable.

Laura Brandenburg: Good. Well, thank you for sharing that because I get that question often, too; like how to make that happen as a remote business analyst or in general.

You get to live in a very beautiful amazing place of the world in Steamboat Springs.

Lane Malone: I am so grateful for that. Every day I’m looking out, right now, out of my office window at the mountains and thankful for the opportunity and to be able to do work that matters that I feel more confident in because of this training.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, thank you. You’ve given us a great deal of time and insight. Is there anything else that you’d like to share before we close things out?

Lane Malone: I guess only that I encourage people to embrace the really open ended process that this kind of a transition can be. I think there are such extraordinary resources available online to learn to connect to get certification, which I’m planning to pursue.

More and more every month, every year, there are companies and organizations that realize the value of these kinds of skills. It can be tremendously rewarding.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much. Thank you Lane.

Lane Malone: Thank you Laura. Have a good day.

You’ll learn:

• How to establish the value of business analysis in a non-profit organization (and why it’s important to do this even when you are volunteering your time).
• The key factors in planning and structuring an event like the BA Blitz.
• How these types of events help spread the mission and the value of business analysis, locally and worldwide.

For those who prefer to read, here’s the full-text transcript of the interview:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome, everyone! I’m here today with Emily Tom from Ottawa. Hi, Emily.

Emily Tom: Hi, nice to see you.

Laura Brandenburg: Nice to see you as well. Emily just, like as in the last couple of days ran this amazing event for the Ottawa Chapter called the BA Hack-a-thon, and it was all about helping business analysts help a nonprofit organization.

I was really inspired when I met you at BBC and you were talking about this event, and I wanted to learn a little bit more about it, and I thought I could really benefit our community as well, as well as just the business analysis profession as a whole learning more about these events and how they can see.

Emily Tom: Sure.

Laura Brandenburg: Kick us off by just talking about how did this even come about?

Emily Tom: Yeah, the inspiration continues. How this came about? I’m the past president of the IIBA Ottawa Chapter. I’ve been on the Board for more than seven years now and it’s something that I thought was useful because I know our BA community and I understand its strengths and what the community has to offer.

I knew about Hack-a-thons in the traditional sense in Silicon Valley with the tech companies letting their developers have free reign on what to produce for their companies. So I thought why don’t we leverage the skills and the knowledge of our local BAs; do the same thing for an organization. And I thought what better way to do this than to do some work, some pro bono work for a nonprofit organization.

Out of this, the idea of doing a BA Hack-a-thon, which our chapter has named BA Blitz, has come about. What we did was we assembled 21 BAs to come together to do some free business analysis work for a nonprofit organization, Women’s Economic Council (WEC), and they are a Canada-wide organization. Basically, everyone descended upon Ottawa to do some business analysis work to help events, WEC, in their mission and vision.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s just phenomenal. Some of the challenges that I often hear is it’s business analysis. Does it apply to a nonprofit? How do we get that nonprofit to see the value of the work? Obviously, if they brought in people and you brought in people, everybody was seeing the value in this. How did you position that to both the Women’s Economic Council and the business analysts that volunteered?

Emily Tom: We actually put a lot of thought into this. We produced a flyer. We prepared a flyer that talks about the benefits; the benefits to the business analysts and the community. All the BAs ranging from the senior BAs, intermediates, all the way down to the novices. They’re getting experience to work with a real life problem.

In the Hack-a-thon format, they’re allowed to use any tools and techniques and tasks that they wish in order to solve a set of problems. There’s great benefit for these BAs to roll up their sleeves and learn from each other and produce something good for the community.

I have to admit. It did take a little bit of effort to sign on WEC as a partner or to get a nonprofit organization to join us in this pilot project.

The profile of a nonprofit organization is that they’re always really busy, they’re short on resources, so many of these organizations didn’t have time to sit down and meet with us. But we were very fortunate to have Women’s Economic Council meet with us and try this out. For them, the value proposition is to have a fresh set of eyes, teams of BAs who have the skill set to come and solve business problems or opportunities.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and so they got excited about that.

Emily Tom: Yes, and I was really appreciative that they were willing to try this out. It was a complete experiment, but what was great was that we had collaborated with them ever since the beginning. Over about a three month period, we worked with WEC to understand their organization.

I had a couple of senior BAs do some preliminary analysis on their organization – what their profile was like, what are some of their challenges. We prepared a case study that was the focus of the BA Blitz event day.

Working with WEC ahead of time to understand their organization was instrumental in having a good set of problems to work with on that one hack-a-thon day.

Laura Brandenburg: You kind of came into the day with problems that they were hoping to have solved?

Emily Tom: Right. And I also gave WEC the reassurance that we’re going to assemble a group of BAs, three or four teams to come together, and they’re coming with a skill set that nonprofits might not have considered when trying to address their business problems or opportunities.

Laura Brandenburg: What was their expectation coming into the event?

Emily Tom: They were rather open-minded. I think that having met with them during the preliminary analysis, they saw where this was going; the kind of thoughtful questions that we were able to ask them ahead of time gave them the reassurance that we had their interests in mind when coming up with recommendations.

As a good BA, what my team had done was we had ensured there was transparency. Every step of the way we told them what we were planning to do, what involvement we expected from them, and how we might circle back if things needed to be changed. We were with them right from the beginning and the collaboration led up to the big event day.

Laura Brandenburg: Is there anything else you want to share about what happened before the event, or should we walk through the structure of the event now?

Emily Tom: Well, I’ll say that there’s quite a lot of logistics involved. Our chapter is pretty strong at running workshops and live events; however, this was something a little different. There wasn’t an actual instructional portion of this, and we had to work really hard at thinking about what are the types of participants that we wanted to come and join us?

We put a lot of thought into this. We structured our event to carefully, you know, the wording of the event was such that it brought a good variety of people, and I think that’s important to have the diversity. Having 21 people in the room with different perspectives led to a lot of different solutions.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, I can bet, and different skill levels, too.

Emily Tom: That’s right.

Laura Brandenburg: Did you mix the skill levels on the teams so newer BAs were learning from more senior BAs?

Emily Tom: Yeah. That was one of the logistical things we had set up. Our chapter uses an event management system to sell tickets. So we structured our event tickets, all at the price, a very nominal fee, for different BA levels to sign up. We had participants signing up with their respective BA experience levels, and we ensured that we had at least one senior BA per team, and that’s how we set up the tables at the actual event.

Laura Brandenburg: Okay. You only had spots for X people at X level?

Emily Tom: That’s right.

Laura Brandenburg: You curated who was there?

Emily Tom: That’s right. And it turned out really well. That was the feedback we got from people offline during the event as well, that they appreciated having that mix of experience and knowledge background.

Laura Brandenburg: Lots and lots of planning went into this.

Emily Tom: That’s right. Now, I’ve written everything down, or I’m in the process of writing everything down so we’ll be able to replay this.

Laura Brandenburg: Very good. How did the day go? Sounds like you had four different teams. Is that right?

Emily Tom: We ended up with three teams. There were three major business topics to cover. And so each team had been assigned one particular area to cover.

Amongst the team there were maybe five or six people. It was interesting, because you would see that they gelled right away, even though half the people in the room were new to the whole group.

There was a lot of cohesiveness. We’d see people writing on sticky notes at their desks or going up to the wall and moving these sticky notes on the business model canvas. You could see the definite teamwork there. It went on from beginning to end all the way through lunch.

Laura Brandenburg: Can you share? I don’t want to step into any confidentiality concerns, but what would an example problem that they were working on be?

Emily Tom: Okay, a very common problem for nonprofit organizations is funding. They’re funded, typically, through foundations or governments or other types of charities. In our case, Women’s Economic Council gets most of their funding from the government. Funding is always a challenge. They’re given a set amount of dollars that they have to work with. They’re a small number of people and they have to make those dollars stretch.

Laura Brandenburg: You were working on like a problem to obtain more funding, or to use that funding in a very efficient way to deliver the services?

Emily Tom: We stayed rather high level in our case study. The teams took it where they wanted to. That particular team, they actually did address both sustainability and getting new funding and stretching the dollars that they already have.

Laura Brandenburg: So they had the license to kind of look at how to solve, really, a very high level business objective vs. what we might think of as like the scope of a particular project.

Emily Tom: That’s right. And as a BA, we’re used to looking at problems from all the different angles and they came up with all kinds of solutions and issues. As a good BA, they went through the whole prioritization exercise.

This particular team, they used some dot voting to vote on which particular areas they felt were the most important for the organization to focus on.

Laura Brandenburg: Were stakeholders in the organization also involved?

Emily Tom: Yes. That was extremely helpful. Two of the people from WEC were in the room and they were there to provide feedback, input. They were there for consultation. It was very useful for the teams because they could get clarification on the problems. And then also bounce ideas off the two stakeholders with this kind of solution work. It was really nice to have them in the room.

As well, they could also see business analysis in action.

Laura Brandenburg: What was the final output or deliverable that they created?

Emily Tom: We were thinking of making it a competition, but we didn’t. We wanted to give everyone a fair shot of being praised for doing a good job.

What happened was at the end of the day each team presented how they did their analysis, which techniques and tasks they performed, they provided their assessment of the problem, and they also provided recommended solutions. That was really cool. The two teams were very keen in putting together PowerPoint slides right away in 10 minutes. Another team did a full business model canvas, and the as-is and to-be scenarios. That was really interesting.

I also emphasized to the teams that they were to also think about solutions. As BAs, typically, we kind of step back and only constrain ourselves to thinking about requirements. But I was pushing these folks to come up with solutions, because that was our expected outcome to give to WEC so that WEC could run off and execute them. WEC has a whole bunch of homework to do.

Laura Brandenburg: Sure, like that overwhelm of, “Oh my gosh, so many great ideas.”

Emily Tom: Right. They have handouts. They have PowerPoint slides that they can work with.

Laura Brandenburg: Will there be some ongoing engagement there?

Emily Tom: Our work isn’t completely done. In the next couple of weeks they’re going to be doing a lesson learned exercise, of course. We’re going to be meeting with WEC to review the recommendations that came from the teams, help prioritize and make sense of what these recommendations were so that WEC can go ahead and execute.

I would like to circle back with them over in the next couple of months or a year from now to see how that worked. That’s all a part of our solution validation. To see how that worked and see if we can provide further assistance.

Laura Brandenburg: Obviously you’re going to be meeting with them more to get their reactions and things, but any initial assessment from them of what they felt the outcome or value was of the hack-a-thon, or the BA Blitz?

Emily Tom: One of the things that struck us is that each of the teams, when they were interviewing with the subject matter experts from WEC, the teams were asking very specific questions to understand the problems. The feedback from WEC was that these BAs were being very gentle and kind and asking about these problems and not finger pointing and pointing out the weaknesses of the organization.

I think that’s one of the strengths of business analysts. We do customer empathy. That’s what we saw in the room. There was a lot of customer empathy. Thinking about the organization and coming up with solutions that are appropriate for them.

Now, WEC also commented that these are a lot of things that they had thought about in the past but never really wrote down and never really prioritized. So it was really nice having the teams come together and provide recommendations on prioritization.

Laura Brandenburg: What about the participants? How did they feel at the end of the day?

Emily Tom: Exhausted.

Laura Brandenburg: Was it a full day event or a half day?

Emily Tom: It was a full day event. A lot of participants, they stated that they learned a lot. They learned about the nonprofit sector, and it’s actually quite big in Canada. It was a stats Canada report back in 2007 that said about 7% of Canada’s GDP flows through nonprofit organizations. It’s a lot of money.

These teams learned about the nonprofit sector; some of the challenges that are unique to that sector as opposed to for profit or public sector which our community is more used to.

I learned about that and I think there was some interest in serving that sector even more going forward. So there was that learning experience.

There was also learning and mentorship happening between the different levels of BAs. They basically appreciated that.

Laura Brandenburg: If you’re at that entry level, you’ve probably never seen something like a business model canvas. To see that in action and see somebody do it and be able to participate in that would be a big experience.

Emily Tom: It was also refreshing for some people to be given free rein to use whatever techniques they wished.

Oftentimes in our industry here in Ottawa, we’re constrained to certain techniques when we have to do real work for a real organization. But in this case, they were doing real work for a real organization, but they were allowed to apply any of the 50 techniques in the BABOK and more. I think they appreciated that because it stretched their creativity.

Laura Brandenburg: And how about for the chapter? What’s the value add for the chapter?

Emily Tom: Lots of exposure. Now we’re being asked when we’re going to do the next one, which I’m not sure. I’m working on writing up a playbook to allow our chapter to do it again without starting from zero. So, hopefully that’ll be easier next time. We’re going to share this playbook with other IIBA chapters because we feel that there’s a lot of value to doing this kind of event in different regions across the world.

Laura Brandenburg: For sure. A hugely valuable asset.

Emily Tom: We do believe in chapters helping chapters. It’s also creating exposure for our other events, too, because we’re able to cross promote some of the other events that we’re running in the next couple of months.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s exciting. What do you have coming up in the next couple of months?

Emily Tom: We have our holiday social, of course. We have our monthly study groups happening. We have our monthly topic presentations as well. There’s a topic presentation happening in January on story-telling. So that should be quite interesting. We also do a speed recruiting event every year. As opposed to speed dating; speed recruiting where we line up different, five or six different employers or recruiters and we run job seekers through them in a fast pace. That’s exciting.

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like you just have a phenomenal chapter. I’ve worked with various chapters mostly across the USA, and some in Canada. There are varying levels of maturity and all of them are hugely valuable to that local community. But when I see chapters doing things like yours, it’s really like the next level.

Emily Tom: Well, I appreciate that. Sometimes you take risks and it works out. It’s a lot of fun. We like to share our results with other people as well so they can learn from them as well.

Laura Brandenburg: Final question, what about for you, personally? Obviously you put a ton of work and effort into this. What’s been the reward for you?

Emily Tom: For me, when I came up with the idea of us doing this hack-a-thon, I always had faith in the BAs in our community. And I really wanted to create that level of awareness that this is something that we can use to take the BA profession forward, expose what we can do for the community. This is just one example of all the creative things that I want to do.

Laura Brandenburg: I love it. It’s really about establishing the value and the recognition of the profession through demonstrating it for this organization.

Emily Tom: That’s right. I think BAs can be extremely flexible, and that’s what we’re trying to do with all these creative types of events.

Laura Brandenburg: Anything else you’d like to add?

Emily Tom: Well, I appreciate this time to talk about our event. I hope that this will have a positive ripple effect across the world through the different chapters. I’m counting on some chapters taking this up and running it on themselves.

Laura Brandenburg: And if people do have questions, they want to get in touch with you about that, what is the best way to do that?

Emily Tom: Our chapter’s on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn as well.

Laura Brandenburg: Perfect. We can include the link to that, too, if you’re okay with that.

Emily Tom: Sure.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much, Emily. I really appreciate it. I learned a lot and I’m inspired by what you put into organizing such an amazing event and how relevant, of course, business analysis is in any kind of organization, including a nonprofit organization.

Emily Tom: Well, thank you for this opportunity. I appreciate it.

Laura Brandenburg: You’re so welcome. Thank you for your time.

Emily Tom: You’re welcome.

In this interview, she shares her journey to finding her confidence in a relatively new business analysis role and how she shows up as a leader to ensure she’s solving the right problems for her organization.

• How she transitioned from economist to business analysis.
• The confidence she developed, and how this impacted all areas of her career, from sending emails, to asking the tough questions.
• How The Business Analyst Blueprint® program helped her build the technical skills she needed to create clarity.
• How she focuses on her wins to cultivate a positive mindset.
• How setting boundaries around her work time and practicing self-care gives her more energy to do her best work.

Connect with Kira on LinkedIn

For those who like to read instead of watch, here’s the full text of the video:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome. I’m Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap here today with Kira Judge from Saskatchewan, Canada. I practiced that a few times. We joked; don’t say it five times fast. Kira is a senior business analyst in that area here to share about her experience with both The Business Analyst Blueprint® program and some of the amazing successes that she’s stepped into in her BA career. Thank you so much for being here, Kira.

Kira Judge: You’re welcome, Laura. We’re grateful that I have this opportunity to participate in your case studies and in a way, inspire other business analysts to recognize the importance of how to help each other out because what I find as a business analyst, we can be perceived as a problem because we discover the problems. We realized the missing requirements. We realize this; we bring light to things that might be missed. And depending on your engagement with business, if you are trying to solve the business problem, you can be just on the technology side, but still you’re bringing value to business.

So, that intention to bring value to business, then you can justify your questions. You can justify some resentment and resistance from your colleagues because you are bringing value to business, and it’s okay. It’s okay to bring value to business because that’s why you’re there. You’re business analysts. I’m very grateful that I am contributing to understanding and appreciation of this profession because it’s very important. And as you know, business analysts are needed everywhere. As Laura points out, success of the project depends on the confident and competent business analysts.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s one of the big transformations I’ve seen in your work this year is just the confidence and how you show up with both the skills and the mindset side of what you’re doing. I love how you articulate it. We’re problem finders. That can create that negative perception. But we’re finding those problems in order to solve them.

Can you just take us back to where you were maybe January this year? But where were you earlier in this career and what were you looking to achieve going forward?

You were kind of already thinking about where do I want to go with my career, and you were in a business analyst role. Correct?

Kira Judge: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: And from more of a business background?

Kira Judge: I’m an economist. I came from kind of business intelligence side. It was kind of a journey for me as well because I was on the business side and every time we solve a business problem, it’s all…it all kind of comes to can you validate this business proposition, or can you validate this business outcome? And it all comes to data. That’s how I move from business to IT, and particularly in the data. I work in interface information management where every information that exists in the enterprise is with us or coming to us.

I’m very much able to deliver solutions for business, but also I have to constantly communicate that I need to understand. Before I do anything valuable, I need to understand. And I was using, already, 8-step business analysis process that…I’m not in my office, but I have a drawing, eight steps. Understand. And if you have questions, go back to understand.

Of course, there is some kind of a balance. You have to strike a balance between analysis/paralysis. If it’s going there, you just ask questions. “Am I right to go this way?” The communication is very important. And I was using one of your templates again. I think it’s called a Business Requirements…I forgot the name, but it’s you kind of saying, this is my understanding of what we are trying to achieve, and what is your expectations of me wanting to do for you?

Laura Brandenburg: Right. So, like the Business Analysis Plan. What are we doing? What’s the scope of the project? What am I actually contributing as the BA? Yeah, it’s great to get people on the same page.

Kira Judge: Before I started The Blueprint, I had this strange fear of sending emails. I used to read five times and sometimes you’re writing an email, “Oh, you have to add one more person.” You’re adding another person then you think five times, you’re paralyzing yourself.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah.

Kira Judge:

How I am going to create clarity when there is no clarity? Do you dig down in the business process to understand what is needed, who is interacting what?

For example, when I learned their use cases, I understand there is no emotion here. Machine is doing what you want it to do and from business analyst, you say, okay, when machine says this, what does the user do? And when the user does this, what does the machine do? It’s clear dive in picture of what this activity in the business process, if it’s interacted with certain technology, have to do for you.

Then the last thing was the technology. That was incredible. It was super timing for me. At that time, I was doing some kind of, it’s a project, short project. We needed to find out the capability of our business enterprise. What can we do with the supply chain data? It was super timely for me because when I started the project, I was studying the ERD (entity relationship diagram) in The Blueprint. It came along so well.

In fact, Doug helped me. He said, “Kira, you need to understand that ERDs are made in order to make business better.” I remember arguing with Doug, “No, this is what it is.” And he’s like, “I know. I know what your business is doing, but the higher level, you have to understand that this problem has to go at some point. What was happening is I was trying to solve the current problem, but Doug was saying you have to look higher. You have to assume that the problem will disappear at some point, otherwise, you are building the problem.” You’re kind of accepting the mistake or the error will be constantly there.

Laura Brandenburg: I’m curious about this because you are an economist, you were working in business intelligence already which, to me, means you’ve got the data, but then the ERD lesson and the learning still had a big impact for you.

Kira Judge: Absolutely.

Laura Brandenburg: If you had to describe that gap, kind of what the gap was and what you had before and what was that next level…?

Kira Judge: I think what was missing in my knowledge is that when Doug helped me out; data has to live somewhere in order to bring the value to business. Not only to solve one problem, but many other problems for the entire enterprise. When you’re solving one business problem, you tend to solve that particular business problem only, and then you change. But what ERD helped me to understand is you build the system, not only for this particular business problem, but for the other potential business pressures. Quite empowering.

It kind of shows that, and I don’t want to say anything negative about the existing system, but it kind of shows that sometimes when we don’t ask people questions, we kind of build systems that solve the problem, maybe, or it was the attempt to solve the problem. But actually, they created something that kind of looks back, and then it’s kind of stuck.

Again, like somebody else didn’t think through and then we end up with second best or maybe sometimes it’s even worse. Doug’s question was like, yeah, this is so important. Building something, you have to think big long term. There’s a challenge. Then you have to analyze. Yes, I know. So, it’s kind of a balance. When you challenge and you’re, okay, you’re analyzing too, you can say, yes, it’s true. Then define the business objectives. It may be different than what you wanted to do. How do you see? What else you would do?

For example, if I’m new to the environment and I’m making a business process, I can say this is not relevant, that is not relevant. You need to have certain level of expertise to say this is not relevant from steps. When you’re learning new things, you have to know everything, at least that’s what I am challenged by that a lot of projects want to deliver really fast, and now we are moving through agile. So, it’s a challenge. But the confidence that you have, that you’re bringing value, you have tools that you go back and read.

Okay, what questions I have to ask? How do I communicate my value? What tools are used to communicate my value to this project or to this activity?

Laura Brandenburg: Great. And I love how you celebrate your wins. I want to come back to that, too. But before I lose this thought, you shared something a few minutes ago about the time that you spent working on an email and kind of worrying about who was on that email and how it was phrased and how that feels like it’s a big shift. And I know that probably feels like a small thing, but I think this is a big deal in our environment. It’s like BAs probably spend a lot of time on email. Could you just kind of walk through what’s different now when you sit down to write an email? How are you thinking about it now in a different way? Whether or not has anything to do with the course materials. What switched for you?

Kira Judge: I guess the level of being…so if I compare myself a year ago and now for some reason there was this internal belief that you don’t bring value. If you’re adding one additional person and then if your information is not valuable, then it seems like there is this paralyzing belief that you’re not bringing value. That your email will take away somebody’s time. That your information will cause somebody to get frustrated. So, this kind of additional fear and belief; additional fear that you are going to cause something that is not real.

The change is I’m not going to be paralyzed by this thought.

Laura Brandenburg: And that you believe in your value so that you know that email is going to have a positive impact.

Kira Judge: If somebody’s not happy, they will tell me. But most of the time it’s all good. Sometimes it happens that if somebody’s truly unhappy, I pick up the phone or make a lunch, invite, and say, “Hey, let’s find out what I have to do in the future because past is past. I’m not going to dwell in the past. What should we do from now and on? If I’ve done something that offended you, I’m fully accepting. I’m human, you’re human. All I need is to achieve A or Z, right?”

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and that comes from within. There’s nothing external that changed. That value has to start here. And then when the external stuff comes up, you have the resilience to handle it. I love that. I know it seems like a small thing to you with the emails, but sometimes it’s the small things that show us the bigger shifts. Thank you for that.

Let’s come back to the wins because you’ve said a few times, “Laura, I’m your win hunter.” And you do. You are so great and have this amazing habit to post your wins almost every single day. I will call you out every once in a while I’m like, “Where are Kira’s wins today?” Talk about how that’s affected you.

Kira Judge: Again it’s focus. I was so amazed that not only me, but Tracie is also following the same pattern.

First thing in the morning, instead of listening to negative news, I read good news network and inform and inspiring news. Somebody helped out somebody. Somebody’s help turning amazing experience for somebody who need it. So there are so many good things happening in the world. But unfortunately, if you focus on negativity, then you will find negativity. That’s my thought.

I am going to record my wins today. Yes, I had a crappy message from project manager, but I am going to celebrate my wins. I am going to learn…this experience; for example, it made me to realize something I missed. I am taking accountability taking I missed something. I don’t blame. I’m human. I’m busy. You should see my email like this. Thirty emails every morning. Possible I missed something.

So I go back to The Blueprint or maybe as a result of The Blueprint, I have access to the Master Class, so there is a clear message from you how to communicate business objectives; how to find out business objectives. But it’s true that a lot of the time every group, technology can have this and business can have this. Your final client wants this and if it’s not clarified and written down and communicated everybody will be doing what they assume.

Those tools make me very confident that whatever I’m doing I’m bringing all of you.

There’s a lot of negativity, unfortunately, and so you have to, literally, be that person who supports yourself. I think a lot of us kind of have negative thoughts because things happen and you’re living in a world where there are a lot of things happening good and bad, but for some reason if you don’t focus on positivity, if you don’t focus on supporting yourself, nobody will. You have to support yourself. That’s why I have lots of them, and sometimes not many, but I still have this habit of inspiring others. When you inspire others, you will find sources of inspiration in others as well.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. That is awesome.

Kira Judge: He’s like, “Where’s my wife?” You mean old me? I changed jobs and I needed support from the BA group. Although I am not new to the company, the BA realm is relatively new to me. That was such as super time for me that I made myself a present.

Another video I have to mention is The Blueprint you sent, if your manager isn’t understanding the value you’re going to bring, send this email. In the email you had a message to my managers. I paid myself in February and waited until the end of June and I had this confidence because that I am learning such a valuable thing for my enterprise, and it was. At the end of the day, they said, “Yeah,” it looked so amazing.

If everybody is so busy, it gets so busy.

Recently, I said to my manager, “Have a great weekend.” He showed me his email. This is my weekend activity; 550 emails. He has to go through 550 emails. I realize, oh my God; he literally, people are so busy. How on earth are you going to convince that your piece is more important?

You, literally, have to bring value by being authentic, by understanding. Compassion is important too, to understand if a person has to go through 550 emails, we can’t risk 550 emails. And the higher you go, that number will only go up.

Laura Brandenburg: You have to work on that belief for you, but we’ll work on that one. But yes.

Kira Judge: I see you got my limitation.

Laura Brandenburg: There’s always something that keeps you from the next level. It’s part of what we do.

I love that; that you submitted it and they had seen the value in you already, in the program and in the changes that you made between February and June, that it was an easy thing for them to reimburse you for the course.

Kira Judge: Yes, it worked out so well.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s part of what you do is you actually do the work while you’re going through the course. So you get the value right away, too. That’s awesome.

Kira Judge: And I like the fact that you always have knee jerks like if your managers are not supportive …. because it says to me you’re from real world. Experience those challenges.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, for sure.

Kira Judge: That’s very valuable for me.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. And, Kira, you’ve been very generous with your time. Thank you. One of the things I just want to call out to you is you have this very rich and vibrant personal life. We’ve been talking about your career, but I’m just so impressed. You have your morning routine, you bike to work and you have all these pieces that you incorporate into this very, very full and busy workday. Do you have any tips for people on maintaining that kind of a lifestyle with a busy full career high-pressure job like you have?

Kira Judge: I think it’s recognizing and accepting what it is. The positivity is a very important piece. My son told me it was incredible. He was maybe 11-years old. He said, “Mom, do you know how many muscles you spend when you frown?” And I have no idea. “Forty-five. And how many muscles you spend when you smile?” “I have no idea.” “Fifteen.” And then he told me, “When you smile, you’re just not wasting so much energy, and when you frown you’re wasting a lot of energy. So, then, somehow I connected; that’s the tool I have to use.

When we are positive, we are not wasting too much energy and that’s where you have additional energy to swim in the morning, to spread inspiration to others, and take care of yourself. Meditation in the morning, swimming in the morning, biking, it’s all part of taking care of myself. My connection with nature.

You know the River Healer story?

Laura Brandenburg: Mm-hm.

Kira Judge: Oh it gets so crazy. Everybody wants something. So you go out, take care of yourself. Because if I don’t take care of myself, I will screw up.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, I love that. That’s a great example.

Kira Judge: It’s all about energy level. You have to have good energy. In order to have that good energy, you have to take care of yourself and inspire yourself.

Laura Brandenburg: Last question, what does success look like for you?

Kira Judge: What does success look like for you? My relationship was already I care. Have to be on a good level. Understanding and compassion and trust from my leaders and my business partners. So trust in relationships. Those two go together. You cannot have a relationship if you don’t trust each other.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, that’s beautiful. One of the things I just keep noticing in our community is success looks a little bit different to everyone, so I always like to understand what it really looks like to the people that inspire me every day.

Thank you so much, Kira. I really appreciate your time. I’m super excited to share this with everyone. I think everyone will have some great insight to take away. Thank you so much.

Kira Judge: You’re welcome. Thank you, Laura.

Laura Brandenburg: You’re welcome.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

You’ll create validated work samples and be a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

Listen in to learn how Dilli:

• Switched directions from software developer to business analyst.
• Creates more momentum by journaling his goals and intentions every day (so do I!).
• Finds significant transferable skills in his role as medical interpreter.
• Practices business analysis techniques outside a traditional BA context to gain confidence.

Connect with Dilli Sharma on LinkedIn

For those who like to read instead of watch, here’s the full text of the video:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello! I am here today with Dilli Sharma. Hi, Dilli!

Dilli Sharma: Hello! Hi, Laura. Good to be with you here.

Laura Brandenburg: So good to be with you, too. Dilli and I were speaking a little bit before we jumped on our official recording, and he’s in Columbus, Ohio and has bought the book, How to Start a Business Analyst Career. He refers to that a lot and was also a participant in our BA Essentials Master Class.

You were talking a little bit about going down a path of being a software developer, and I know now you’re in a medical interpreter role. So, do you want to just take us back, where you’ve been over the last year or so in your career and what you were looking for when you found Bridging the Gap?

Dilli Sharma: Thank you for that question, Laura. Let me begin with that. I have been a medical interpreter for about three years now. My role as a medical interpreter has something to do with the business analyst role as a liaison where I work with doctors in hospitals, also, but with limited English language patients, who are not able to tell everything to the doctor. So, I am a middle person to convey messages between the patient and the doctor.

I see that it has a lot to do in a business analyst role, too. That’s where communication is central, and we really clarify what we hear, listen really actively, and that’s what I do. Now, although I am still a medical interpreter, video medical interpreter, I also was learning my SQL and becoming a developer and got started with a developer role for about six months or so. Working in that role I realized that I needed a little different kind of a role where I am a better fit.

So I thought about business analysis, and that’s when I started exploring more into. I happened to look around a lot of resources on business analysis, including YouTube where I found one of your videos. That really touched me. I started searching for more materials you had published, including the How to Start a Business Analyst Career book on Kindle version where I actually have it, and I really love that book.

I feel that I have learned a lot from that book and have gained some confidence that I can probably tell anybody that that’s the book to go if you’re looking for a business analyst role. I’m proud that you have written that book, and I am learning a lot. Thank you for this opportunity.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. We were talking before, too, about how you had happened to find a video and that just connected with you. It was just really heartwarming the way you shared how that connection happened.

I record these videos all the time and our recorded one here, as well, that will connect with someone else and inspire someone else, too. So, I’m excited to share a bit more of your story. What’s driving you into a business analyst role? What would you like out of that career?

Dilli Sharma: Unknowingly, I had been doing…I realized that I had been doing a business analyst role in some way. I am communicating with people, I am presenting some information to a group of people, I am asking questions, I am listening, and I am either drawing or prototyping or sketching some pictures and then presenting that to the group, whether I am in a translator or healthcare interpreter role.

Now after I really went through your video, what caught my attention was here is a business analyst role that has a lot to do with the one I am doing right now. I feel with some skills developed and confidence, I think I can make myself a better person. Looks like it’s a better career and a more rewarding role, and I’d become more than what I am now.

I help organizations solve the problems. I’ll collaborate with them, listen to them, and then become a person that delivers a better value to organizations. That is driving and motivating me to learn more about business analysis. What I am strong at in my current role that will help me to at least get started with, but at the same time, there are a lot of things I really need to hone: skills and confidence and all of the things.

That master class, BA Essentials Master Class, is where I actually found you in that email periodically. I thought that was a good value and it was really worth it that I put just a little bit of money to see if how it would go. But I just realized that I haven’t found any courses as valuable as yours, to be very true to you. I’ve realized you are the person I need to follow, and I will definitely become successful. I know it will take time, but with practice and perseverance, I feel confident that if I follow successful people, a successful person, like you, I will definitely become successful someday.

That’s my firm belief, and with that faith, I got started with the BA Essentials Master Class. I’m confident I have learned a lot from there. I completed a workbook you provided and also qualified to get 12 credits, which I can apply to my ECBA certification. That’s one thing. What it made me from that point to now is more important.

I think I have become more with your course now. That’s how I feel about the course, and I recommend it to anybody who has great understanding of what this role is, what it does, whether it’s for me or not, and so on. It’s really clear that it can guide anyone, like me, and all of us.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, thank you for that. One of the things I would love to hear more about is you mentioned completing the workbook. The workbook is asking you to complete the 8-step business analysis process. What did you use as your project, as your example?

Dilli Sharma: One of the important things I have actually used, especially, is the process of flow diagrams. One important thing that I learned is although I work as a medical interpreter, there is a process in that work that I perform: what I do in the beginning and then how I handle the call, who is on the other end of my phone or video, and then how I manage the flow of the conversation. Now in that process, I think there is a whole process there.

What I saw was from one point to another point, you move forward, you listen to, you actually communicate, and then you convey that message to someone else, even in my healthcare interpreter role. When I compare that with the business analysis role, I found about the same process. Being a liaison who works in the middle in a project team and helps communicate, I started sketching a workflow diagram first and then connected myself. “These are some of the people I am working with, the roles. This is where it begins here. The next step is here and then it goes to this next stage. What task am I doing particularly? What is the project all about?” I will understand in that process flow and figure out what I can anticipate after that stage.

This is actually…I think we visualize ourselves into that process and digging from one point and then go all the way through every stage of that process to the end. When I drew that sketch, I usually , based on the book that you wrote, I just tried a trial with Visio and found really, really helpful to play with those different shapes, BPMN and UML, pictures and in those different shapes, including a diamond and a circle, small circles to begin and then end that process with. Between there, there are diamond shapes where you make important decisions whether you move forward with that or go back—yes/no kind of things.

That helped me move further into the process and, in some way, developed my analysis. “Here is where I begin, and here is where it might end, but it can also have the other route to go the next stage. That’s how I did it. One practice I did that was actually with the hiring process of any new hires up where it begins initially, and then where the interview text lists. In this entire process, I was able to draw that. I saw myself in my current role, what I do.

Using that work flowcharting process I was able to picture myself. “I am beginning here, and I am moving into that stage. Now here is where I analyze that process. This is the outcome of what I am doing. Here are the people I’m working with.” Ultimately what I delivered at the end…was there any value I delivered? In a nutshell, I was able to draw that and saw myself from one end to the other in that process.

Business analysis process also has the same process to follow. Using that Lucid chart, and you also mentioned Balsamiq where I could also practice wireframing and mock-ups.

I am on sub-commission with those two, and the practice of those things is generally putting a scenario, imagining about it and then drawing those different things in different places. That has increased effectiveness of the analysis process in me, and I think I’m learning that in my everyday life, whether I go shopping or a restaurant. There’s a process, there’s a line, there’s a queue. You start at one point and then you go to the other point. Then however you started visualizing…everywhere in life situations, there’s a process.

Laura Brandenburg: Business analysis is everywhere.

Dilli Sharma: Exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. You mentioned using all the tools and some of the process flows. Have you been able to use that in your medical interpreter work and gain exposure for a wireframe or a workflow diagram that you created?

Dilli Sharma: Not yet. I have not been able to do that yet. I have contacted a business analyst in my company, and he mostly works remote. He’s in Texas, actually. I have been able to find…both of them work remote. I have not been…I usually email him and then get connected, but I’d told him about, “Here I am looking to see you, trying to work and help you in several ways.

I am learning business analysis now and then I know some of the things, so I could help you either taking notes by your side while you present, or I would be able to help you with some kind of material variables where I would be able to maybe try to create some scenarios, some use cases—how it begins and where the end flows, the basic flow, what happens when there is error, a lot of different routes and situations.

I have been practicing those things, and I have also practiced using the mortgage process application,–how it moves from one estate to the other. If it doesn’t get…if the application doesn’t get, or the approved, it should, again, go back to. But, Laura, I have not been able to present those things to my current work. I have been able to map that process, the flow chart of that process, with my current role only.

Laura Brandenburg: That actually is the perfect place to start. What I love about what you just shared is that you started right where you’re at mapping out your current role, almost as a project, too, because the BA Essentials goes through the 8-step process. So it’s almost like each patient or case you take on is a project that you applied the BA process to.

Dilli Sharma: Right.

Laura Brandenburg: You have, right from the beginning our talk today, internalized so much of what a business analyst does and speak with a lot of confidence about how what you do relates to business analysis. I think that’s just such a great place to start from. When you talked about you growing as a person, that’s what I can reflect back to you. It’s how you’ve seen the connecting the dots, and you’re starting right where you’re at.

Dilli Sharma: Right. Thank you. That’s what I’m doing right now, Laura. There’s a long way to go, but I’m more excited about this role.

Laura Brandenburg: You’ve got to start somewhere, right?

Dilli Sharma: Exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: I think a lot of people feel like the whole world has to change, and then you get dropped into an official role. But really, often it’s just this incremental step; one step at a time. You’re definitely on the right track. What’s next for you?

Dilli Sharma: Some of the things I am doing currently, I think somewhere in your book you had mentioned some of the little tasks and activities you should be doing now so that you associated with somebody, either a business analyst or business analyst similar role.

I started going to BA local chapter meetings here in Columbus, and I happened to find some recruiters and also some other SCRUM Master presenting some presentations. “Here is what we are doing as SCRUM master or business analyst in our company. Here are some openings in our company, specifically for roles like…”

There are HR people, there are recruiters answering questions for people who want to enter into business analyst roles or who have already been doing business analyst roles but still feel that there is something missing or they feel that they are not good enough or something like that. One thing is every month there is one local chapter meeting, and I have started going there.

Another thing is, based on the project, I am just trying to create different projects on my own based on use cases and creating some wireframes. I know they don’t look good in the beginning, but as I keep practicing more and more, I start feeling better. “This should be a better one. I need to go around this and then maybe that will present itself better.”

I practice at home. I usually do those things in my journal. Before I sleep in the evening, I usually write down what I need to accomplish the next day, what should be my important tasks for the next day, which chapter of the Business Analyst book that you wrote has to be internalized, or what are some of the tasks at the end of the book that you have given that you can do. You start feeling like you are a business analyst already.

Keep doing what you are doing, get better every day, do important tasks, gain your confidence. Don’t think that there is a perfect business analyst, but get started with something and get better at it. Now that’s the mindset I have started internalizing. Sometimes I give some kind of self-talk when I go on a walk in the morning. “I am a business analyst.” I am visualizing myself that I am a professional business analyst, and I am good, I am confident. I know doing these things…so kind of visualizing that I am already there. That is what I’m doing, giving some kind of self-talks to myself because I cannot accept that. I mean, really.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes. So we were talking about journals—how I live by my journal, and I write my goals every morning. What am I going to do to move forward towards my goals, and also what am I grateful for? Those are three things I journal about every day. It does. It’s what keeps you moving, keeps you going ahead, so I love that.

Anything else you’d like to share to somebody who might be considering one of our programs?

Dilli Sharma: Definitely, Laura. It’s definitely a very valuable program. Whatever you offer from Bridging the Gap or whatever you publish on that website, I think are all value-based. I just feel personally that anybody who is walking in my shoes now, looking into a business analyst role, finds a really quality program in there and really good instructors who can point out, “Here is where you can get better,” or, “Here is something you can write better,” or, “Here is an area you need to improve on.” I think it’s those little things that compound and make you a business analyst.

You have already mentioned those things in the book, as well as in the website. Now, there is  The Business Analyst Blueprint® course that you are offering now. I have already seen a value in that, and I have also seen a lot of testimonials who are speaking on themselves, how they took that course and then they got started in a business analyst career.

They are doing good in their job, in their very first job. Now, that means a lot to me, and I think, to anyone who is in my shoes right now. So I definitely recommend this course to anyone, including the Business Analysis Essentials master class that I took. They are valuable programs. I honestly tell that have you put in a lot of effort, real thoughts into that, and you want people like us to succeed. In that perspective, those courses are programmed. I have been influenced by your program.

So, hopefully to anyone who will start the program…I am confident about the programs that you offer and see great values in that. I don’t know if there are any other courses outside there, but your courses are really for people who are looking for values and success. That’s all I can tell.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much. Thank you so, so much. I’m really excited to see where you go and in your career. I think you’ve got all the pieces in place and are doing all the right things. It’s just a snowball. So, thank you. It’s been an honor to speak with you today.

Dilli Sharma: Thank you. Thank you, Laura, so much. I think I cannot say more, but you are a great educator. When I look back to my own school life, there are certain teachers who have influenced me more than any other teachers, and I believe you are one of them.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you.

Dilli Sharma: That’s where I see you, and I really salute you for what you are doing. I remember Zig Zigler’s statement: “If you help enough of the people to get what they want in life, then you will get everything you want in your life.” I think it’s very in line with what you are doing. There’s not any other career where you find that fulfillment. I really love this.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. It’s a great motto for the BA role. We help others get what they want, so it’s a great philosophy that makes you really a BA. So, welcome, Dilli.

Dilli Sharma: Thank you so much.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you so much.

Dilli Sharma: Appreciate it.

Todd has a long background in developing and designing software and is now a business analyst. Listen in (or read below) to learn how Todd:

• Discovered his identity as an analyst, and specifically a business analyst.
• Leveraged his investment in up-leveling his skills to land paid contract work with a past employer.
• Leaned into the instructor feedback he received to shift his mindset around database design.
• Leaves his organizations better off than when he started, able to transfer his work to lower-level staff, and not create a dependency on him and his knowledge.
• Was open to exploring new ways of thinking and applying modern best practices to take his self-taught experience to the next level.

Connect with Todd Fleming on LinkedIn

For those who like to read instead of watch, here’s the full text of the video:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome. Laura Brandenburg here from Bridging the Gap here today with Todd Fleming. Hi, Todd.

Todd Fleming: Hi, Laura.

Laura Brandenburg: Hi. So, Todd is from Somers, Montana. I’ve just got to check my notes. As we mentioned, it’s not a familiar town that most of us are probably familiar with. It’s near Kalispell, Montana. Todd participated in our Spring 2019 session of The Business Analyst Blueprint® and had some pretty cool successes from that. I wanted to share his story with you or give him an opportunity to share his story with you. Todd, if you could just take us back a little bit to where you were at before you joined The Business Analyst Blueprint®. Where were you at in your career? What were you looking for?

Todd Fleming: At the end of 2018, I found myself in a job search and looked at all the different roles that I’ve experienced and truly knew in my identity, in my soul that I’m an analyst. Then I was looking at, “Well, what kind of analyst am I?” and I realized, “Yeah, I think I fit that description of a business analyst, being that liaison between the front end of the process and systems and making that connection to the back end and developing systems and working well with people.”

So, I started looking for, “What does my resume need to look like?” I was Googling that, and I came across Bridging-the-Gap.com and found you, Laura, and started researching your website and then saw that you wrote a book, How to Start a Business Analyst Career. I’m like, “Well, this is the person I need to connect with.” So, that’s how it started, and I started looking at your free online courses and really thought that your material was legitimate and well-presented, and it spoke to me in a way that I could understand.

I signed up for your course early. Right at the beginning of January and really was looking to build a foundation as a business analyst, having a resource to go to that gives me confidence and credibility and the skill sets that are labeled as a business analyst.

Laura Brandenburg: What were some of your expectations going into the program?

Todd Fleming: Well, I think in the very beginning, I thought, “This will lead me to be a certified professional.” I’m still not sure if that’s really the right course for me at this time. So, that was the very beginning that I thought, “I need that CBAP stamp on my resume to be a better catch or catch more attention.”

Now, eight months later almost, I don’t really see that as the definite thing that I need to do, but I do, after completing the course, have the educational units that I need to go forward with that.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s always an option.

Todd Fleming: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and that happens a lot, that people come in with that goal and things shift as they go through the course because they build the experience and the confidence that you’re looking for this outside validation, but it starts to come more from the inside.

Tell me: One of the reasons I wanted to speak with you, specifically, is because you mentioned you were in between jobs when you joined the program. One of the things that we do in The Blueprint is you’re applying each of the modules as you go through. You had a really unique way of solving that dilemma, being somebody in between jobs. Can you tell us a little bit about how that worked out for you?

Todd Fleming: Sure. A former employer of mine who I’d built a database system for was merging with its parent company. So it was, more or less, a subsidiary, smaller company merging with the larger company. Right at the beginning of this year, this merger was developing.

I let the business owner know what I was up to. I was signed up for this course to develop my business analyst skills, and, “…just wanted to let you know.” He told me a little more about the merger and I said, “Well, maybe there’s a way I can help you with that.”

Because I’m already a subject matter expert in their field. I developed the system that, now, the parent company has adopted. So, they were adopting this system that I had built, architected for them. So, I was the original business analyst/designer/architect/developer of this system, so it made sense to bring me on board to do some of this work.

As things progressed—for example, the first module for analyzing a business process—I analyzed a process for their financing, or invoicing. The process was to invoice a completed work order. I did the complete workflow diagram. I interviewed the main person in their invoicing department, and realized that there was a gap in their process on what you do when invoicing rejects the invoice from the project manager that sent it in.

They had no process for that, error step or decision point in that. When they made that decision, it was left to communicate their rejection in a pretty vague, anonymous…there wasn’t a sending point at all.

Laura Brandenburg: Right.

Todd Fleming: As they were getting more involved with their merger, and they’re involving me just bringing this new system online to the parent company, they found…well, I found the opportunity to show this to the top levels of the new company, or the parent company, to show them some examples of the work that I’m doing in The Business Analyst Blueprint course. That caught their attention. They really appreciated it, and I offered it at no cost to them, just doing it in good faith that it may lead to more work, and it has.

To this day right now, we’re just getting into the start of redesigning this original system—basically coming out with version two of it. They’ve engaged me to do that.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. So, you started just volunteering for them and gave them a bit of it for free. Then that led to an actual client engagement, as well?

Todd Fleming: Right. I was hired to do administrative work on their system, but the business analyst work that I was doing was, more or less, volunteer work.

Laura Brandenburg: Got you. Had you done that kind of analysis before when you were designing that original system?

Todd Fleming: Not to that detail.

Laura Brandenburg: Okay.

Todd Fleming: I didn’t do workflow diagrams. I didn’t do an ERD. It was, more or less, just building it from what I knew. This gave me the framework to be able to do the detailed work that’s necessary to document a process and document how the system is actually laid out, especially when it comes to…what they really need is documentation for within their dictionary and their glossary, their whole data modeling, so that they can take this system, whether the platform they use now needs to change. Then they can take that and move it along whether I’m there or not for them.

Laura Brandenburg: Got you. I’ve actually talked to a lot of people who come from a business background recently. It’s been a while since I’ve talked to somebody from a software background. Tell me: what were some of the mental switches for you that triggered…it’s the same system. You designed it, you built it, and now you’re looking at it from this completely different view. What was that experience like?

Todd Fleming: I really had to humble myself to say, “I need to look at this from that different perspective. Maybe there’s a better practice that I could employ in this, especially within the redesign.” My instructor, Doug, led me into a whole rework of how the tables would be presented in this system.

I’m like, “Wait a minute. I designed the original one. Are you telling me this isn’t the right way to do it?” Now, though, I have that, and I accepted that as…it was challenging. I looked at it in a different way, and now I can actually take the second version of this system, the 2.0, and make it even that much better and create more value to the customer.

Laura Brandenburg: What are some of the wins that they’ve experienced as a result of this or some of the benefits to the organization you’re working for?

Todd Fleming: They are benefiting mostly on their…they’re taking a system that in process… So, all of their systems right now that are kind of just disparate and on their own. They’re looking to integrate their systems and really produce valuable, data-driven decisions. This gives them the starting point to grow in that.

Right now the company doesn’t have an in-house IT department. I’m just working as a contractor or consultant for them. So when I’m told that you want to make data-based decisions, who’s maintaining your data? This is giving the company the benefiting of realizing they need to make a move in that direction.

If they want to follow through with their vision, they need to bring the resources to make that vision happen. If they want to try to do it internally without the right resources, it’s going to be a long, difficult road, and I think they’ve already been there. They’re ready for change in that. That created an opportunity, the timing of this, having an added value skill set that I earned through The Blueprint. It presents me in a way to them that, “We need you here working on this project.”

Laura Brandenburg: Right. It has created…now you really are a business analyst. You’re doing these skills as part of your contract in consulting work. Would you consider yourself that?

Todd Fleming: Yeah. I’ve been self-employed for about the last four years, and now I feel confident that I can label myself as a business analyst, where before it was, more or less, I tried to give a name to it. It was “systems manager consultant” or something like that. I’ve worked in within project management and project coordination, but I’d never really had that title, business analyst, until recently, and I feel comfortable that when you look at my LinkedIn profile, and it says “business analyst” as the first thing you see that I’ve been working as a business analyst, and I do indeed have these skill sets.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and experience. What do you see as next for you?

Todd Fleming: Well, I’m basically taking it one project at a time. I’m looking at opportunities, new career opportunities, looking for new business analyst roles, possibly, under employment instead of self-employed. I’m really not sure right now as we speak where I’m going. So I do want to work on this project with the company here in Kalispell, and then I’m not sure really what the longevity of that will be.

Maybe they create a new role for me and want to bring me in as an employee or just we do a service contract to continue our relationship professionally. I’m open to new things right now.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Thank you for your time. I’ve just got a couple more questions. It’s been really helpful. I think a lot of people get in this gap, and what I love about your story is how you were in that state and you got unstuck and out of it. It’s really the growth path over the last eight months is pretty significant as a result of that. Thank you for sharing that.

What would you give to people who are in that same state, like in between opportunities, thinking, and “Could I reach out to my past employer?” What advice, I guess is my question, would you give them to follow in your footsteps?

Todd Fleming: It doesn’t hurt to reach out. “What do you have going on? Oh, by the way, we’re doing a merger.” I’m like, “Oh, really? The work that I did for you before may be not so relevant, but now I have a strengthened skill set that I think will help you move forward with your new project.”

I was looking for help on how to define myself as a business analyst and what was it. Thankfully, Laura, you created what you created for all of us to learn from you and your program, and you hit it on the mark. How do I start my business analyst career?

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. Thank you for that. What I’m hearing from you, too, is there was the reaching out. It doesn’t hurt. “I might hear, ‘Yes.’ I might hear, ‘No.’ There might be something here; there might be not.” Having a story around that or a fear around that, just putting that aside but also letting people know that you are expanding in your skillset because I think a lot of people who have done one thing in the past kind of feel pigeon-holed in that role.

You do have to be active in telling people that you’re going in a new direction and helping them see that or the potential of that in the organization. A few things to focus on as you’re doing outreach if somebody else is going to follow that kind of path. Final question: where would you be today if you hadn’t chosen to make the investment in yourself and The Blueprint?

Todd Fleming: I’m really not sure.

Laura Brandenburg: It’s a hard question.

Todd Fleming: Yeah. I would probably still be trying to figure out, “How do I start a business analyst career? How do I apply what I’ve done in the past experiences and move it forward to a business analyst career because that’s what I want to do?” I think if I hadn’t taken the course, I would still be kind of set on some old thinking and old ways of doing things, which aren’t modern best practices. Just self-taught filling in the role when it wasn’t well defined in the past.

Laura Brandenburg: What would be an example of that?

Todd Fleming: Years ago when I was in Ohio, I was basically the program manager for an SAP billing system for utility, and I didn’t have a staff. So I filled that role as business analyst, but I didn’t have a foundation of what to do until I kind of saw it happen because I had contracted some business analysts that came over from India. They were doing workflow diagrams and things like that.

I didn’t have a clue about how that fit into the whole system. I just would look at data tables and figure things out and not realize what was missing. I was able to still re-engineer a process, but it wasn’t well documented for the company. Now if I were to go back to that space, I would be able to know what to do to document it, who I need to bring in to help understand the process better and redefine it. In the end, it still worked. Processes were improved, but how they got approved, there’s no history of that other than what I know, really.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. The value you can add now, like you had mentioned this, is, “Whether I stay on this contract or not, they’re going to have some assets that they can use to run the system.” That increases the value you’re adding because when you leave, that system still can be maintained and understood and used well. Yeah.

Todd Fleming: Right. I want for the company, when the time comes for me to leave, that they can look at what I brought to them and say, “Thank you,” not go, “Oh, this guy left all this stuff undone, and now we can’t do anything about it.”

Laura Brandenburg: And that comes around full circle for you, too. I think it can be scary, like, “Now they don’t need me,” but on the flip side, somebody else will come see that and be like, “Wow. This guy did great work. We should call him back,” or give you a great reference because I’ve had that happen where my work from years ago is still being used. Then it leads to something positive in the future. I love that goal for you. That’s a good one.

Todd Fleming: I do a good job of working myself out of a role or out of a job. What that means is I’m usually creating a system that replaces me and then training somebody to do this at a lower level than where I was because the system is replacing the higher-level skill set.

In turn, like what you were saying, it comes full circle to where that value will be remembered. Then when they need that again, it’ll come back.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. That’s great. Anything else you’d like to share before we close things?

Todd Fleming: I’ve enjoyed working with all the staff at The BA Blueprint, and from the very beginning when we met and spoke in the early enrollment, I just really had a warm feeling from you that you care, and you do. It’s obvious you’re here to help people, and I appreciate that, and I thank you.

Laura Brandenburg: Thank you, and I appreciate you taking the time to share this. I love celebrating successes and helping inspire other people to follow along in these successes, as well. Thank you so much, Todd.

Todd Fleming: You’re welcome.

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

You’ll create validated work samples and be a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

Munzolli Tower, from the New Jersey area, is a business analyst with a business background. During the Spring 2019 session of The Business Analyst Blueprint®, he interviewed for and receive an internal promotion to Senior Business Analyst within a new department in his company.

Munzolli walks us through exactly how he achieved this promotion, and how important it was for him to be able to speak to his key business analyst skills (and not just business expertise) with confidence to secure this new role. 

Connect with Munzolli Tower on LinkedIn

For those who like to read instead of watch, here’s the full text of the video:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello, and welcome! Laura Brandenburg here from Bridging the Gap, and I’m super honored and excited to be speaking with Munzolli Tower today. Munzolli is from, or living in New Jersey now but grew up in Michigan, like I did, or has family in Michigan, like I do. Munzolli, first of all, thank you for being here.

Munzolli Tower: No problem. Thanks for inviting me, having me on, and just being able to share my story.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. I’m excited, too. There are some pieces that I know from the things that I’ve seen in the group, and there are some things that I’m sure I will learn in our conversation today. So, if you could just take us back. You were part of the spring 2019 session of the Blueprint. You joined in January/February. Where were you in your career in January/February of this year?

Munzolli Tower: Up to that point in my career, it was a little chaotic for me. The company I’d worked for, for about ten years, had recently just sold their casino division to a Canadian country. So, I was shipped off to that company, and it was a whole different world, different processes, different methodology in how they work.

It was really an adjustment period there. Time to say, “Everything is going to be up in the air. Let me see if I can learn some new skills or fine tune some of the skills I already have that will help me along the way.” There were just a whole bunch of moving parts at the same time.

Laura Brandenburg: So lots of change in your organization. You’ve been a BA for a while, though, correct?

Munzolli Tower: I have. Unofficially, I guess you could say I was really doing it and not really knowing I was doing it. I just sat on projects and was sent to represent the group, so I did so. Then, I had the chance to meet with a certified BA. Just running around because they’d just gotten hired, and they asked me, “What do you do?” So I say, “This is what I’ve been doing up to now, but mainly, recently I’ve just really been hammered and involved in project work and representing the groups in this way.” He’s like, “Really? I do the same thing.” So then, he introduced me to IIBA and told me about the certification and from there, it just really took off from that point.

Laura Brandenburg: So, you have more of a business background than a technical background?

Munzolli Tower: Yeah.

Laura Brandenburg: You were a business subject matter expert that ended up being on the projects? That’s how a lot of people roll into business analysis.

Munzolli Tower: Oh, yeah. That was definitely my path.

Laura Brandenburg: All right. What were your expectations when you joined The Blueprint? You mentioned you were in a state of chaos looking to improve your skills?

Munzolli Tower: Mm-hmm.

Laura Brandenburg: And also, you’re on your path to certification now. Is that correct?

Munzolli Tower: No, I actually got those. I got my CBAP, PMPs, CSPO, and CSM.

Laura Brandenburg: All right! So, you’re a very well credentialed business analyst. What were your expectations going into a program like this with all those credentials still behind you?

Munzolli Tower: Really, I wanted to make sure that it wasn’t just the area I worked in, where I had a lot of subject matter expert knowledge. I really wanted to make sure I was good in business analysis. So, my expectation was to ensure that the processes I was using spoke to being able to be transferable to any industry and organization. To learn more, you had Data Modeling section or module that really interested me. I had a little exposure but not a whole lot, not as much as I wanted. So that was another one.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s an area that a lot of BAs don’t get exposed to until there’s a project that needs it, and then you can feel like you’re in a sink-or-swim situation.

Munzolli Tower: Yeah. Exactly.

Laura Brandenburg: Is it something that you’ve used now in your work?

Munzolli Tower: I actually have. I used it in the Canadian company, where I had just recently switched from. That was actually perfect timing.

Laura Brandenburg: Are you able to share a little bit about that project? I think it’s always interesting to hear about what projects were like, different kinds of projects that BAs work on.

Munzolli Tower: For that one—just trying to refresh or remember the details. I guess I could probably put it to a better project: the one I’m currently working on now for a company. I really had to go through and understand a particular file where they’re sunsetting one, I guess you could say, accounting system or collection system, and they’re moving the details to a newer, more robust system. So, I had to actually trace the file and map the data from the original one to the new one, and the fields were way smaller than the new one.

I had to actually…I guess you could say one of the fields where you make a pledge to make a payment, in that…it’s not quite configured yet to…well, the two isn’t quite developed to be able to pull that data into the new system correctly. So, I had to work with this group and discover a workaround for that. With the workaround, we decided that it’s best to append the data to another file and section with just a couple of tags.

That data modeling course pretty much gave me the mindset to understand how the systems will relate and pretty much get it done in a much easier fashion than I probably would’ve normally.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and avoid a ton of issues, too, because when you mentioned that workaround, discovering—even though you’re still using a workaround—discovering that earlier in the process rather than…my husband does a lot of data migration type stuff, and a lot of times, people are like, after it’s live, “Well, wait a minute. Where is this data?” That’s a big…you prevented so many issues down the road, so that’s pretty phenomenal.

Munzolli Tower: Yeah. Working with more senior BAs who had been in the company longer, it was just really helping me to be able to speak the language and communicate in a clear way.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. Are there any wins from the program that stand out to you?

Munzolli Tower: Really making sure everything speaks the same language. I worked with Doug, and he really fine tuned mine, and I think I would have little subtle differences that he would immediately pick up. He made everything more succinct and easier to read in flow. I think throughout each of the three modules, he helped me find opportunities to make sure everything is absolutely aligned.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. The language, and that it’s a tight and clear document? Yeah.

Munzolli Tower: Absolutely.

Laura Brandenburg: And I know one of the things he shared about you in our recap was how you really reworked some of your models and really just jumped into the learning opportunity and received the feedback and worked through it and showed up in the instructor hours and asked questions and really approached it with that investment mindset, as well.

Munzolli Tower: Definitely. To me, I wanted to make sure that I did everything that I possibly could to understand and fix the problem before I came and tried to elicit more help and information. I understood that it was a big goal to me.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that, and I’ll be sure to pass that on to Doug, as well. Along the path—I actually don’t know if it was related to The Blueprint or not—but throughout the program, you actually found a new job and were promoted into, or you moved into a senior business analyst role. That’s correct, right? Can you tell us a little bit more about how…was it a promotion in your company or a new company? How did that come to be?

Munzolli Tower: It was actually a promotion within a new company. I worked for Canadian company, and now I’m with Fiserv, which is an American company. Really just understanding and being able to pull some of those details, some of the information from the course, like the processes, being able to probably discuss more with them about different entities and go into a little more detail about the use cases.

I used them, in a sense, in the past, but Doug really challenged me on a bunch of my assumptions and the way I used to go about doing them. I fine tuned my expectation, though, and I was able to speak better and more in depth and apply it to more situations when going through the interview. The job interview process was a lot more thorough than I remember since I’ve been out of that process for, up until now, about ten or so years. So, that was definitely a win.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. BA interviews do tend to be pretty in depth like that, so if you’d been interviewing for maybe more of a business role and hadn’t interviewed as a BA before, that is a big part of it because I think sometimes employers don’t really know what they’re looking for. So, they just keep asking questions until they get that level of confidence in a candidate. Is this the first job that you applied for that you got?

Munzolli Tower: Well, I applied internally when I was working at US Bank. Originally, my role was kind of like a structure financial analyst, in a sense, with them throwing me on different projects. Then I transitioned and applied for a business analyst role within the company. That one was my first interview, but you’re already inside the company, so it’s not as thorough as going to another company.

Laura Brandenburg: So, it was an internal?

Munzolli Tower: Yeah, the first one.

Laura Brandenburg: Nice. Well, good. I’m glad to hear that there was a connection there and that the confidence you had in your skills was a big part of that, as well. I guess a couple more questions have come up. You’ve been really generous with your advice and your feedback. Somebody going for what you’re…to follow in your path into more of a senior business analyst role, what are some of the general tips and suggestions you might give to them? What do you think were some of the keys to moving along that path for you?

Munzolli Tower: Honestly, the thing that really stood out to me is really in the beginning. When I first started in the company, they would say “Well, we need help here. We need help there.” Just really getting that exposure to the different parts is instrumental. As they believed in my skills and the work I was doing, putting me in different projects really built up my confidence at that point. It’s really just sometimes seeing that little subtle opportunities that may feel like extra work at the moment really pay big dividends later on.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. So saying, “Yes,” to the things that came up along the way?

Munzolli Tower: Yes. Some were really difficult, really time consuming, being there really late on a Friday night in the summertime when you’d much rather be out doing something nice. Those things really set the foundation for what I’m doing now.

Laura Brandenburg: Right. So, you were able to combine the skills with this track record of contribution and going to the next level in your organization.

Munzolli Tower: Yep. If I really had to bottom-line it, I would say just doing those things gave me a subject matter role, in a sense. It exposed me to more of the different areas and being able to support and understand the processes from their side. From that, just being able to communicate that well and in a way that’s helpful to the people who are going to need your skills and your abilities.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. If you hadn’t invested in The Blueprint, where would you think you might be today?

Munzolli Tower: If I didn’t invest…that is a tough one. I would probably be a BA. I don’t know if I would be quite as polished because given the fact that you’re able to take real world work so that when I work on my projects, I can do it right. Then, you know, I’m putting my best effort, but then you refine and perfect that process even further.

It’s kind of like a fast track, in a sense.

You’ll still make progress. You can definitely make progress on your own, but it’s just the time invested in getting to where you want to get can be dramatically sped up just by having people who are…even if you’ve been doing it for a while, you may find a process that works for you, but just having different groups of people who have been doing it in different areas and being able to fine tune and get different perspectives really helps to get you in a better place.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. Thank you for that. I just want to honor the investment you’ve made in yourself with the time and the financial commitment., and obviously, with the investment you’ve made in your work and constantly going to the next level. That takes courage and discipline and perseverance, and that’s what got you to where you are today. Thank you for that. We really need BAs like you, and you’re going to inspire a lot of people today. Any last words before we close? Anything you want to make sure that you share?

Munzolli Tower: It’s definitely possible. A lot of times I was told, “You probably won’t be able to do this,” or, “Maybe you should look in a different area.” A lot of times, myself, I didn’t really see the path forward, but as long as you keep pushing forward, eventually something will break, and it will happen. To me, it was really just finding the right piece that connected everything together. From there, everything just took off.

Laura Brandenburg: I love it. I had one more question since you were sharing that. What does the next step look like for you now?

Munzolli Tower: For me, the next step is being able to master this process and teach it to someone else. Get them to where they want to be, understand where they are. Kind of like what you guys have been able to do for me, understand my strengths, my weaknesses and craft situations that will put me in a better place to help understand what I’m doing and be able to do that for someone else.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. I love it. That’s the ripple effect of one BA helping another. A great profession for that. Well, thank you so much for your time, and I can’t wait to see you…well, it’s great to see you succeeding in this position and also be teaching others. That’s an amazing thing to hear, so thank you for sharing that. Thank you for being part of Bridging the Gap.

Munzolli Tower: Thank you for having me.

Laura Brandenburg: Thanks!

About The Business Analyst Blueprint®

When you join The Business Analyst Blueprint® certification program, you’ll learn all 12 of the industry-standard techniques and the business analysis process framework – to build your confidence in the best practices of business analysis.

You’ll create validated work samples and be a credentialed business analyst as a recipient of the Applied Certification in Business Analysis (ACBA).

>> Click here for more information about The Blueprint <<

Perhaps your to-do list is always growing, no matter how hard you work or how many hours you put in.

Maybe you are drowning under the burden of managing your career, being there for your family, and just want a tip or two to get a few more things done.

Today – meet Kenji.

Watch to learn how Kenji:

• Said “no” to many “to-dos” to say “yes” to what mattered most.
• Reframed limiting beliefs that kept him busy all the time but limited his impact.
• Brought his new mindset around time to his family.

And please join me in celebrating Kenji and all his successes!

Watch to learn how Diana:

• Reframed her interconnection of “smart” and “quick.”
• Received commendation from her practice lead for being more confident.
• Learned to handle the fear that comes up when you are growing.

And please join me in celebrating Diana and all her successes!

Watch or read to learn:

• How Karl made the shift from corporate to consultant.
• The differences between being a corporate employee and a consultant.
• The different types of consulting engagement, and how industry expertise factors in to your success.
• The limiting beliefs that can hold you back from success as a consultant.
• Ideas for how to make money while you sleep!

For those who like to read instead of watch, here’s the full text of the video:

Laura Brandenburg: Hello and welcome everyone, I am here with Karl Wiegers today. Hi, Karl.

Karl Wiegers: Hi Laura, thanks for inviting me.

Laura Brandenburg: I am so excited to be interviewing you. I learned that you are the author of 11 books, including this recent one, Successful Business Analysis Consulting, so congratulations. I remember when I was starting out in the business analyst space and learned about you and your work and got to meet you at an event. Just the contribution that you have made to our profession is just over the top. It is really an honor to have you here and share some of your wisdom with our community, so thank you.

Karl Wiegers: Well thank you, that’s very kind of you, Laura. It was fun to meet you at that event as well. One of the things I miss about not doing conferences too much anymore is that I don’t get to meet some of the people who are in the industry and see some of my old friends too. But it’s nice to get to meet folks once in a while.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah and I am in a similar position, I don’t do a lot of conferences. I think that is the one time that we managed to connect.

Karl Wiegers: Right.

Karl’s Start Into the Requirements Space

Laura Brandenburg: Well anyways, kind of a little bit about you. So, you have been writing and talking about software requirements for a long time. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got started in that space?

Karl Wiegers: Sure, I realized recently and kind of shocked to realize that I started learning how to program almost 49 years ago in college. It hardly seems possible. That is scary close to half a century. Back then when we were programming you didn’t really talk much about requirements, you got an assignment from the professor or you had some other project you were working on, you had an idea of what you wanted to do and maybe write up some notes or some screen sketches and off you go.

Time passed, I got out of grad school and in fact, one-third of my Ph.D. thesis in Organic Chemistry was code. So, I have been doing this for quite a while. I went to work at Kodak after I finished my post doc. After a while, I started doing a fair amount of programming there as well. Also about that same time, I got into home computing. Back then we had what were called microcomputers — Atari’s and Apple’s and things like that — and I was very active in that kind of space.

So, I did a lot of programming at home and did a lot of programming at work, and every once in a while, I felt like that my project was out of control. Not the project, just the program I was working on, felt like I was out of control. I didn’t quite know what I was doing, I was fumbling around and maybe I would even start to panic.

What I realized when I thought about it, is that I just hadn’t spent enough time thinking through what I was supposed to have when I was done. So that led me to start thinking about requirements a little bit more and learning about them and what they are and how you represent them and why it’s a good idea. After I started doing that, I never again felt like a project was out of control and that was a much better feeling.

Laura Brandenburg: So, you started doing that first, the requirements first?

Karl Wiegers: Right, if I spend some time thinking about requirements and understanding where I’m heading, before I dive in and start driving somewhere, then I pretty much, usually, get to where I am going.

The group I was in at the time, a software group supporting photographic research labs at Kodak, I started learning a lot about better ways to approach requirements and we learned about and applied techniques, like close customer involvement. In fact, we came up with an idea we called the product champion approach, which was basically the same idea that agile has said, “Oh, hey why don’t we work closely with our customers?” That’s a pretty good idea, in any case, I would think.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah.

Karl Wiegers: And we started doing that around 1985. We were maybe a bit ahead of the curve in some of those things. We learned about prototyping, visual modeling, use cases, testing and reviews of requirements and things like that. Once we learned how to make those techniques work for us, we found our projects went a lot more smoothly. I found myself kind of taking a lead role as a requirements analyst on some projects throughout the company and that felt natural to me. I think requirements engineering was kind of a good fit for my skills and my interests and my personality.

As you probably know, over time, the idea of a requirements analyst kind of morphed into a business analyst. We don’t talk much about requirements engineers or requirements analysts anymore; everybody is BA. I think a lot of chunks of BA work go well beyond requirements, but that’s still, I think, a core function that most BAs perform. Do you think that is still true?

Laura Brandenburg: For sure, for sure and the pieces that go beyond are the interaction with people, but it’s all about what are the requirements? What is the problem we are solving, what do the people want, how do we collaborate with them? It all comes down to how do we actually figure out what are we going to do here?

Karl Wiegers: Yeah. How do we know when we are done? I mean without requirements I don’t know how you answer the question, “Are we done yet?” So, this is still a strong interest of mine and I began writing and speaking about what we learned and what we’d accomplished and trying to share whatever I learned about how to do a better job on requirements through speaking and writing.

I figured why should everybody have to climb the same learning curves that we did? So, that’s a common challenge and that’s kind of how I got into this. It wasn’t really a plan, but it turns out there was a need and it was an interest of mine, so here I am.

Laura Brandenburg: Well we are all grateful for that.

Karl Wiegers: Thanks.

Starting a Consulting Career

Laura Brandenburg: I know that we want to talk a lot about your consulting career today and kind of give a flavor to that. Can you kind of take us forward to when you decided to leave corporate and become an independent consultant? What did that transition look like?

Karl Wiegers: Well I was pretty well ensconced at Kodak, I worked there for 18 ½ years, mostly in the research labs and then in some product software development areas doing process improvement work for the end of my career. I moved into software, even though I started out as a research scientist, I moved into software after about 4 years there.

Like I said, I started writing articles about what we learned, and I started speaking at conferences and it turned out this visibility that I got from having a public face that started leading to invitations from other companies and organizations to speak at them. Well, that was kind of a surprise, so I said well that sounds alright. That kind of snowballed. I ended up writing my first book, Creating a Software Engineering Culture, in 1996, while I was still working full-time at Kodak. Which was a lot of work, doing a real job and writing a pretty good-sized book.

I had an agreement with my management all along — I was very upfront about this — I had an agreement with my management that I could speak at other companies, teach classes, speak at conferences and cash the checks so long as there was no business conflict of interests. They wouldn’t want me speaking at another photography company for example.

I was at a conference once, probably around ‘97 and the conference producer, the manager of the conference, was a well-known software consultant whose work I have known literature for quite a while. He said, “Well, looks like your speaking career is going pretty well, when are you going to leave Kodak and hang out a shingle as a consultant?” Frankly, I had not thought about doing that for a job. My first reaction was that sounds like a scary idea to me, I like to eat every day. Why would I do that? There is a comfort level within a corporate womb. There is a predictable paycheck showing up in your checking account every two weeks and you have vacation time sometimes and all of that, just kind of comfortable, benefits even.

But then I thought about it, and I said, you know, I don’t like being managed or don’t need to be managed. I don’t like being a manager. Maybe I can work by myself. Maybe I could make a living as a consultant. I figured, well, maybe self-employment would work and if not, I could probably go back to a regular job.

So, I started Process Impact, my consultant company, in late 1997 and I left Kodak just a few months later. As it turned out, I was always fortunate to get plenty of work. You know that’s a scary thing too, as you know, being self-employed. Is the phone ever going to ring? Turned out the phone rang, and I enjoyed the flexibility, the freedom, the diversity of activities that came along with being an independent consultant and it worked out better than I thought it might. So, I said, well I think I will do that for twenty years or so.

Laura Brandenburg: Just like that?

What It’s Like to Be a Consultant

Karl Wiegers: Well, you just don’t know, you know. There were aspects of it that were surprising to me, but overall it suited me well and I never, really, had the temptation to go back to work for another company. Now, I don’t know that I could.

Laura Brandenburg: I can sympathize with that because I started Bridging the Gap, kind of thinking it was going to be this “fill this space in for me” and it was an experiment and I’ll go back at some point when my kids get a little older. And then you get hooked into the consultant role. My business is much different from yours. You get hooked into the freedom and the opportunity to have an impact like you do across multiple organizations. Then I think why would I go back. I am my own boss.

So, but tell us a little bit about what you experienced as the differences between being in that corporate setting and being in more of a consulting setting. Just a little bit to some of being your own boss is the big question.

Karl Wiegers: Yeah, it’s a very different kind of working environment and you mentioned something important, Laura, which is the opportunity to have an impact on other people. You can do that to a certain extent inside a company, but a lot of times it’s just your local work group, or maybe if you have some visibility and reputation, and I did develop that at Kodak. Other people would sometimes call me and say, “Hey, we are having problems with this project, can you come help us out a little bit?” But still it’s limited in scope and that’s why I got a lot of satisfaction from the writing and the speaking and feeling like you are sharing things that are useful to others.

But you know, it is very different being on your own. I went from a company of well over 100,000 people, to a company with one. The thing I found first is that when you are an independent like that, you have full responsibility for everything that happens in the company.

We talked about this, you and I, a few weeks ago and I mentioned that absolutely everything that has come out of Process Impact, every piece of writing, with the exception of a collaboration on a book that I did; every training course, every presentation, every product, I’ve done all of those myself. I think one of the things that came out of that message is that the kinds of people who are suited for this sort of work, and you’re probably one of these, are self-starters who can chart your own career path and work on your own, you don’t need other people to point you in the right direction. You can figure out a direction.

Laura Brandenburg: Right.

Karl Wiegers: Another thing I found out is that unless you are working through an agency or third-party contract company, you are going to have to find your own work. And so it takes some initiative, some patience and some creativity in how you present yourself to potential clients. You have to become a little bit of a marketer, an accountant, a salesman, a writer, an office administrator. Whether you are out of notepads, coffee or jobs, it’s your problem. That’s the big difference. You don’t have to worry about that in a company.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and you know one of the things I realized as you were saying that is that you do. You take on all these hats and we are still business analysts. But sometimes I feel like that is the hat that gets dropped in my own company because you are wearing so many hats. To know how to do business analysis, and you are like, I know how to do business analysis. Have you had that similar experience? Do you do business analysis in your own company as well?

Karl Wiegers: Well in a company of one, I do everything. So yes, I actually have written requirements. This is, perhaps, interesting. I have created a number of products over the years – a bunch of E-Learning courseware and other things like that. I’ve written requirements for them. So I actually do try to apply what I have learned.

And, again, I found that taking the time to think through this, to write it down to remind myself, because you know your memories aren’t’ perfect, they never are; just the act of working through what we know about business analysis and writing requirements is worth every second you spend on that, because it pays off with everything else going smoother. Yeah, I do that, but in a different way you would with a large software development project.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, exactly. We end up having a lot of checklists and a lot of process flows. A lot of things that help hold the team together, for sure.

Karl Wiegers: Yeah, another thing that I found out was really different about going out on my own, and I noticed this immediately, is that there was a lack of daily opportunities to kick ideas around with other people. I felt kind of isolated at first. You are used to having people all around to either have some social interactions and to scribble on a whiteboard and get feedback on something you have created and point you in the right direction. I really felt that as kind of a jarring transition from corporate life, both for the professional and the social interactions.

Eventually, I closed that gap. I bridged that gap by building this network with other consultants and other professionals and practitioners, many of whom I’d never met face to face, but you can do that virtually.

Laura Brandenburg: So, an online community?

Karl Wiegers: Yeah, you do. Another really huge difference in working alone, is that your finances are completely different. You might go weeks or months without getting any income, so you need financial stability to even jump into that pool. It’s nice to know if there is water in the pool before you dive in. You need a comfort level with that erratic income, so that you can get through those periods where you might not have much money.

For example, you might deliberately decide to have a period where you don’t have much income because you are spending time writing a book or doing something else. So that requires trade-offs. You have to save some money for the leaner times, for your future, and very importantly for retirement. You are fully responsible for all those things now too, nobody’s putting money into your 401k. Nobody is funding a pension program for you. You want to have money when you are 70-years old? You better put it in the bank.

Another thing that gets complicated is your tax returns and the way you handle taxes. Instead of having a little chunk taking out every paycheck, you have to pay quarterly estimated taxes. Your tax returns get a little more complicated, and that kind of depends on how you structured your business. How are you structured? Are you an LLC or S-corp?

Laura Brandenburg: We are an LLC filing as an S-corp.

Karl Wiegers: Okay, LLC filing as an S-corp. That one — I don’t even know about that one.

Laura Brandenburg: I might be, don’t hold me to that. We figured it out with the CPA and then the CPA made that happen. That’s not my area of expertise.

Karl Wiegers: Nor mine. And that’s one thing you are going to do when you become self-employed. You are going to need an accountant, if you haven’t already got one. You are probably going to need a lawyer. One of the things that my lawyer and accountant suggested to me when I started out was, both of them said, “Get QuickBooks.” Well, I don’t know anything about accounting, and I don’t really need to. I have used QuickBooks all this time and it works fine.

There are different ways you can structure your company. I have always been a sole-proprietor. I’m not incorporated, but many people are, or they have a limited liability company and LLC. All of those things have some pluses and minuses regarding the finances and that sort of thing. Some of the things I talked about here may be the rude surprises when you go out on your own. It’s like, “Gee I didn’t know that.”

Laura Brandenburg: Some of those are like the overwhelm. What would you say is the best part? Like what kept you doing this, because you had to go through all of these challenges. What kept you in the consultant realm?

Karl Wiegers: Well once you learn about those other things, like the finances the variability and stuff; once you figure that out, it’s like, “Oh okay, now I know how that works,” and I can move on. But what I have found as big pluses of being self-employed in this field were the huge amount of flexibility in the kind of work that you do. You can steer your career in pretty much any direction you want to, assuming of course, there is some market for it. You can decide which job opportunities that come along that you are going to accept, which ones you don’t want to do for whatever reason, could be for a lot of reasons. You can spend as much time or as little time as you wish enhancing your own professional skills, branching out into other areas as your career evolves, and developing the kinds of expertise and clients that you find most rewarding.

Another real big plus is that you can make a whole lot more money as a consultant than you can in corporate America. You can also make zero money depending on how things go. Just kind of depends on how you shape things.

One message that I think is really important that I figured out pretty early on, is that it doesn’t matter how good you are if no one knows you are there. That’s a big, big difference when you are self-employed. You have to do all of your marketing. You can do it actively, you can advertise, there’s always the social media and websites and stuff like that. I have chosen to do all of my marketing passively through my writings and presentations.

People have to know that you are around, what you do, and that you have something useful to share, otherwise the phone will never ring. I have been lucky because nearly all of my clients have come to me; I don’t have to go out hunting for them. Sometimes people may have to do cold calling or warm calling to follow up and that’s uncomfortable for a lot of people. You know, just calling someone and say, “Hey you got any work for me?”

So, networking…

Laura Brandenburg: You say passively, and all of your clients have come to you, but it’s not that you were waiting for that. You mentioned writing and speaking. There were things you were doing to get your name out. Obviously, writing books. Those were bringing clients to you even though you weren’t specifically doing maybe active outreach.

Karl Wiegers: Exactly.

The Critical Role of Marketing Your Consulting Practice

Laura Brandenburg: I think this is really important people. When they talk about my business. I spend most of my time marketing now that we’ve got a course model. It’s a big part of the business.

Karl Wiegers: Yeah and some people don’t seem to understand that. I know, in particular, one consultant who has tried to be independent from time to time. Very smart guy; just hasn’t figured out some of these basic lessons and has never gotten enough work to get traction it and didn’t do some of the things you need to do to get the visibility to let people know that you are there.

One thing I would suggest that worked for me, at least, if you are thinking about going out on your own and you are in a company right now, I would suggest trying to do some of those things to spread your face and your name and your knowledge around and try to line up some clients first before you take the big leap to see if anybody cares that you are there. Or you could work through and agency, another company, there are several companies that do business analysis. You might end of working though one of those companies instead of being completely independent.

I have really enjoyed being self-employed. It suited my professional goals, my personality well. Like I said, I just don’t think I can go back to a real company.

But there are some things that I found, even in a one-person company. Management is unreasonable and uninformed. The staff; they’re all lazy and they have a bad attitude. So, I guess there is no way to get around that.

We have a company slogan, though. Would you like to hear my company slogan?

Laura Brandenburg: I would.

Karl Wiegers: Our employee is our greatest asset. We really believe that. It’s true. Undeniable.

The Types of Consulting Engagements

Laura Brandenburg: So, let’s talk a little bit about what this actually looks like. There are lots of ways you can go as a consultant, right. We talked about a few weeks ago when we talked, that you do a lot of training, but there have also been times where they hire you to sit in a room for a day and people came in and asked you questions. Like just different ways that those engagements played out and kind of giving people of flavor for what can they actually sell. How can they sell their services to people? What would that look like?

Karl Wiegers: Well, there are a lot of different kinds of things you can do. Even though I have called myself a consultant for more than 20 years now, frankly, most of the work I’ve done has been training. That’s just what the phone rang for. I mean I have done a real wide cross-section of things.

One thing I have not done is gone into a company and worked side by side on a project as like a lead BA or pair of hands BA working with, maybe, the company staff when they have wanted some augmentation. I haven’t done that kind of extended project, but of course, a lot of BA consultants or contractors do that sort of work.

Some of the areas that I have worked in span, well they span a huge variety of companies as well. I have worked for maybe over 130 different clients over my career in a wide range of industries, all levels of government, state, county, federal and even federal in other countries. I have worked for people from very small companies, maybe 30 people up to companies of over 100,000 people. You know people sometimes have this debate, like how important is domain knowledge, if you are going to be a consultant?

I think it is always valuable to have industry experience in a certain field, because it helps you get up to speed quicker, it helps you understand the client’s terminology and their business practices. You can ask more insightful questions if you know something about the business, than if you didn’t.

But, I think as a consultant it is risky to specialize in particular business areas, because that reduces your potential market. And so I haven’t done that; I haven’t said okay I am going to specialize in the financial industry and just deal with, you know, banks and the financial services industry. I haven’t’ done that because I don’t want to rule out any sort of work opportunities that might come along.

Laura Brandenburg: It seems like it would be much more volatile, too.

Karl Wiegers: Sure.

Laura Brandenburg: Different industries have trends and if you are focusing on an industry that’s in a down swing that’s going to affect your income.

Karl Wiegers: Oh yeah. I can give you a great example of that. The client I have done the most work for over my entire career is a wonderful guy and his name is Bill. He works in a big company with many, many divisions worldwide and I have worked with a lot of those divisions as well as with him. He’s a director of a software center of excellence in the company, which is very forward thinking in itself, I think, that they have one. He would give me pretty much as much work as I wanted to do, but a few years ago his budget just basically dried up and the reason for that was because a lot of their revenue came from the oil industry.

At that particular time the oil industry wasn’t doing that well, so they were tightening their belts. So, if I had specialized in the kind of work that client does or if I had just one client who was my money source, I would have been in pretty sorry shape. I do know some people who that happened to. They had one great client for years, the client went away, and they had no work. That was pretty scary. No work at all.

Laura Brandenburg: How did you make that decision? The decision you made is that this client could keep me busy, but I am going to choose — you almost, like, had to say no to them to create some diversity. How did that work?

Karl Wiegers: Well I was lucky that I had enough different inquiries coming in from different kinds of companies that I could be selective at that time. Bill is great. He would respect whenever I’d say no, but he’d come to me with interesting things or stuff that he knew I was a good fit for. We had a really nice, and still do, both personal and professional relationship. In fact, I’m going to go do a talk for them in St. Louis in July, which will be the first talk I have done for a little while and it will be good to see all those guys again.

But I think you do have to decide to do you want to specialize or not. I have never found that domain knowledge is really necessary for the process-related kind of things I do like teaching classes or developing procedures and templates and stuff. Those span lots of domains, lots of projects, lots of industries because what we do as business analysts is pretty global, I think. Have you seen that in the kind of clients that you?

Laura Brandenburg: I mean sure, we’ve had the same thing happen in our training. It’s multiple industries across the globe. It’s the same core frameworks that we’re teaching again and again and again. So, we get to see how they apply across…a business a process is a business process. How to write a use case is how to write use case.

Karl Wiegers: It really is, and I think when I am teaching classes, I will definitely try to build in examples or tell stories that are relevant to that audience, compared to say another audience. But I don’t maintain 10 different versions of my training classes with different exercises and things to specialize. And I don’t think it makes any difference. I think most of the people who take our classes are smart enough to sort of adapt the idea and intent behind a practice to their reality. So, I try to localize it, but I think most BA practices can be applied with just little thoughtful adaptation to a very wide range of situations.

Laura Brandenburg: This actually, when we talked about impact, that’s a service to people in those companies as well. I know what we see happen in our training is that people do have this assumption that what they do is unique to their company and they can see it’s actually not as unique to my company as I thought and with these little adjustments I can take this skill I have an make it very transferable in other industries and domains as well. So you are helping them make that connection.

Karl Wiegers: Yeah and that’s really valuable for people because they may not be in that company, in that job, in that industry for their whole career. And so realizing that they’ve got a lot of portable knowledge, I think, helps them look beyond whatever hole they are in at the moment.

Another place you see that, really, is when you do a public class that has people from random places come to some public class you’re doing, maybe 25 students from all sorts of backgrounds. You get a little cross-fertilization. You realize that everybody is wrestling with the same kinds of issues. You’ve got the same kinds of frustrations and same kinds of challenges, so I think that helps people appreciate that, well yeah, these are pretty common situations.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and is public training, then, part of your model as well?

Karl Wiegers: To a much more limited extent. Almost all the work I’ve done has been for individual clients. I’ve never put on my own public classes just because I’ve never needed to, so I didn’t need to take the risk of arranging room facilities, marketing, see if anybody shows up. I’ve done public classes through third-party entities, periodically, such as probably around 2000. Year 2000, I did a two-week European seminar tour through a tour vendor, a requirements management tool vendor. I gave the same class six times over the course of two weeks in six different cities in Europe. Which sounds very exotic and, in fact, is very tiring and very boring.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, so there’s that double-edged sword of the consulting again. All these amazing places and…

Karl Wiegers: But you’re working.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah.

Karl Wiegers: I did have a few days off, so that was kind of fun to do a little sight-seeing in London and Paris and a few other places.

Laura Brandenburg: You talked about that in your book, too. Like now, in kind of a more mature state of your consulting, you would frame that a lot differently and make sure you had a couple of days, maybe, in each area to explore. You talked about putting those breaks into the engagement.

Karl Wiegers: Well, yeah. That’s another thing that kind of touches on another thing that I learned as I went along in my consulting career is over time I accrued a number of policies. These aren’t written down in a book somewhere, although they easily could be. Well, actually, now they are written down.

Laura Brandenburg: I thought they were here.

Karl Wiegers: That’s right. They weren’t written in a book at my company, but they’re definitely in my new book about successful business analysis consulting. But I did adopt policies like teaching a two-day class is fine. I’ve done many two-day classes, they are tiring but you can get through it. Three days is harder, and I just don’t like to teach on my feet talking for four days in a row. So, if someone wants to bring me in to do two two-day classes, I take Wednesday off. I don’t charge anybody for that. That’s my decision, but I need the downtime. I recover quickly from being tired, but I need the downtime. I need to rest my voice because I have a lot of allergies that makes it hard to talk for a long time.

So, I found that I did develop checklists, I develop policies that just, you know my life easier if I do these things than if I don’t. I think every consultant is going to have to develop their own set of practices like that, that helps them work in an optimal way for them. For example, you have to choose what sort of work you need to do or that you like to do.

There are kind of three consulting modes that I have found that you might find yourself working in. One is as an expert. Client has a problem, wants you to come in and fix it. You might do some training or deliver a process assessment. You might review some product deliverables and give them some feedback.

An organization might hire an outside expert to come in and lead the BA efforts on a project or do some coaching maybe help bring their BAs up to speed and recommend better practices. Maybe help establish a business analysis center of excellence. I actually did one job as an expert witness, which is something else you might get hired to do as a consultant in a lawsuit. Fortunately, I didn’t have to testify, and I think it was because I concluded that the client who hired me, their lawyer who hired me, their client was responsible for most of the problems. So, he said thank you and sent me a check and that was that, I didn’t have to testify. But those are some of the kinds of things you might end up doing as an expert.

But another kind of mode you might work in as a consultant is as a pair of hands, just a practitioner where you are providing some service like routine business analysis that the client company might be able to perform itself, but they just don’t have the staff or the time. Maybe they don’t have the internal expertise yet and they want to bring someone in who can just do BA stuff for them, because we don’t really have any BAs yet. So, then the client defines the need, sets the project expectations and boundaries and the consultant kind of just does the work on their own.

But the third mode, which I think I favor the most, is a collaborative consultant mode. There’s a case where you are joining forces as a consultant with members of the client organization to work on a project or solve the problem together. That kind of helps get you past some of the gap of interactions that I had mentioned early on.

So, what I found out as working as a collaborator, you might work on some same deliverables passing them back and forth just like you would in a normal job til you complete the project. Their domain knowledge can be really valuable, but it depends on what part you are doing. So, for example, I got a job a few years ago; a financial services company called me and said “Hey, we’re doing our architectural governance process.” I don’t even know what that means. “We want to build in peer reviews for that. If you know something about peer reviews can you help us do some training and process for that?” Well I don’t know anything about architectural governments. I don’t know much about financial services. But I know a lot about peer reviews. I wrote a book on that topic as well.

So we collaborated. I worked with one of their people or two of them, one primarily. And he did parts and I did parts. I did the parts that I was good at so I didn’t have to know about the domain of the business to do my part. It was a fun collaboration. I think we came out with a nice product which is just what they were looking for.

So basically, the diversity of consulting experiences for BAs, project managers, and really anybody in IT, just kind of depends on the diversity of activities that somebody might perform in any of those disciplines, it’s lots of different kinds of jobs.

Laura Brandenburg: Really what I am taking away from this is like there’s more; there’s not a framework, and so there’s this flexible nature of it and it’s about finding the overlap between what that client needs and the expertise and the skills that you offer in really creating that win, win scenario. It could look a lot different from what you think. I know one of the mistakes I made starting out, was I had created this whole package as to what my consulting was going to look like, and I see other people do this to. “Well, I’ve got to figure out what my services are going to be before I can go start trying to find a client.” What I hear you say is, no just start like talking and sharing what you know, let the clients come to you and figure out what that win/win might look like.

Karl Wiegers: Yeah, I think that can work and a lot of what I have created have been driven by clients. For example, years and years ago somebody wrote me; one of the things that happens, as I am sure you’ve experienced this as well, when you get some public visibility you get random emails and phone calls from people who have some questions or want some help or do you have something…

Laura Brandenburg: Everyday.

Karl Wiegers: Sure. And I always enjoy talking to people like that. I always try to provide a substantive response, you know, to the extent that we have time. One time somebody got in touch and said, “Hey, we’re trying to figure out how to deal with the requirements change request. Do you have any checklists or anything that can help us assess proposed changes before we say sure no problem, we can do that?” Well, I didn’t, but I said, “Oh I think I can do that.”

So, I came up with some checklists and a planning worksheet and stuff to help people think through the impacts of a change request so they can decide if is this a sensible business thing to do or not. Because of that just random inquiry, I spent a few hours creating stuff that I have then incorporated in books and articles and resources that I have sold or given away and to my training. So, a lot of what I have done is not just stuff I invented and said here is the perfect class so let me go out and see if anybody wants it. It was in response to an inquiry or a need or a question that I had got, that said, oh, I can do some of that. That helped me grow my body of resources and my own body of knowledge, too, by looking into these things.

Laura Brandenburg: And it gives you the confidence that what you’re creating is what somebody needs and would want and really helps grow the business.

Karl Wiegers: Yeah, reduce it to speculation.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, for sure. Get this out of analysis paralysis, another problem that we have a lot as BAs.

So, this is a good segue, because one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is mindset. Because this has been a new area that we talk about at Bridging the Gap is the mindset of success and limiting beliefs. Were there limiting beliefs that you had that came up as you started growing this practice and how did you reframe them to get through that?

Karl Wiegers: Well, I was probably more struck my limited knowledge than limiting beliefs, but I didn’t quite know what I was getting into. But there are some things that I think do apply there.

For example, you might think you need to be a world-class expert in some area before you dare call yourself a consultant and go out and try to help other people, but you don’t. This takes me back. I’ve been writing articles about software about for, I don’t know, 35 years or something, since about 1983 which hardly seems possible. Around 1989, I wrote a little article, kind of tongue and cheek with Wiegers Laws of Computing.

I had about 14 laws of computing and one of them was, if you are one week ahead of the next guy, you are a wizard. And you know, I think that is still true. You don’t have to be the world’s expert in something, you just have to know more or have seen more, or have more ideas than the person who you are trying to help. It doesn’t have to be world class knowledge; it just has to be more knowledge than they currently have.

So, a lot of us have that kind of expertise. You could end up limiting yourself by saying, “No, I can’t do this yet because I need to take another class, get another certification, you know read another book.” Maybe not.

Another thing that would certainly be a limiting belief, and this came up at the very beginning when I said to my colleagues at Kodak, “Okay, I’m going to leave in a few months. I’m going to go become a consultant and will see what happens.” Somebody asked a very insightful question that I had not considered, they said, “Well, how are you going to stay current if you don’t work on projects anymore?” Interesting question. You know at a company you are working on projects all the time and so you are learning whatever you need to do to do the project.

What I realized, very quickly, is I don’t have to work on projects to learn things because as a consultant I stay in touch with lots of clients; I get a chance to reach out and touch clients so I can collect experiences from clients that enrich my portfolio of knowledge without having to do it all myself. I don’t have to work on a slow multiple month or year project and gather knowledge and do lots of the same things over and over. Instead, I look over people’s shoulders. I see what they are struggling with, I see how they do things and then I can collect that and pass that wisdom along to other clients for a very reasonable price, of course. That was not obvious to me. You might think, well I have to work on projects or I won’t grow. That wasn’t true at all. There are lots of ways to grow without having to suffer it all yourself.

Laura Brandenburg: I just crossed that limiting belief a couple of years ago, because that was part of me like, oh, I will do this for a certain amount of time. Then I need to go back if I am going to stay relevant. Then I realized that no; just like you are looking over the shoulder of your consultant companies, I’m looking over the shoulder of our trainers, our instructors, our participants, and I am seeing what’s happening. Do that and add a few conferences in the mix.

Karl Wiegers: Right, see good ideas. That’s something you’re pretty good at, is seeing what other people do that seem like good ideas and say, oh I think I’ll do that for now on. Maybe just the way somebody; one of them was just the way somebody dealt with flip cards at a conference. I said that’s better than what I do. I will do that from now on, and I have ever since and that was many years ago.

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah.

Karl Wiegers: So, I think you can, if you are paying attention, which is a key point here, you’re paying attention and actively looking for ways to actively to do what you do better tomorrow than you did it yesterday. You don’t have to do projects all yourself. You don’t even have to do the work all yourself.

Like in my books, I have got some books on software requirements, there are lots of stories in there; lots of anecdotes. Every single one of them is true. They are not necessarily things I did, personally, but they are all things either I’ve done, personally, or I have seen other people personally do. So, they are all real experiences that we can all learn from.

Karl’s Book: Successful Business Analysis Consulting

Laura Brandenburg: So, let’s talk about your book, because I want to make sure we are making good use of your time and you have just authored this new book, Successful Business Analysis Consulting. I’m just curious why you decided to write it and what somebody can hope to gain from, what a reader can hope to get out of it. Obviously, you shared a lot of gems with us today about consulting. I’m sure there is a lot more in here as well.

Karl Wiegers: I think so. I think one point is that the things that are in the book even though the title says, Successful Business Analysis Consulting, they apply to project managers and any kind of IT consultant and, really, just anybody who wants to be self-employed and kind of go out and try to provide services to clients on their own. It’s not really limited to BAs, but this fits nicely in a line that the publisher have a series of BA analysis books, so this was kind of the piece to go in the catalog.

But, you know, when I started out more than 20 years ago, I didn’t know much about being self-employed or being an independent consultant and there weren’t a lot of resources available for me to learn from. But I have figured out how to make it work. I was lucky to be more successful than I had expected. One thing I have done all along my career is say, “Hey, I’ve learned something. Maybe someone else would like to know this. Is there a way I can share that?”

Again, I don’t think we should all have to climb the same painful learning curves. So, I like to share what I have learned to make other people’s lives easier, and I wrote the Successful Business Analysis Consulting book, which contains pretty much everything I have learned in my consulting career. Every once in a while, I’ll remember something else that’s not in the book and will say, oh yeah, I’ve learned that too. I sort of internalized them all.

Also, I got a number of other experienced consultants to contribute chapters. So the reader will benefit from multiple perspectives, not just my personal experience and background. This is really the book that I wish that I had available before I decided to go out on my own and just see what happens.

There is a lot of stuff in there. There are 35 chapters grouped into six parts. I start by trying to help you lay the foundation; this idea of letting the world know you’re open for business. How do you even do that?

But another thing that we have not talked about yet is that, and you’ve probably seen this, if you are self-employed, working out of your house maybe, there are going to be some different impacts on your life and on your family’s life and you probably have to consider those. Someone who is used to having the house to themselves during the day, all of a sudden has you around also and that might change the way you do things.

In that first part of the book, I also talk about working with professional organizations such like the IIBA, and that’s a really good way to get some visibility. You can start giving talks at local chapters of your various professional organizations and people will say, “Oh, this is a useful person across town to know.”

Another thing I talk a lot about is things that I’ve learned; realities about this kind of a job, mostly through trial and error and, you know, the errors really weren’t that much fun. So, if I can save someone else from having to make some of the mistakes I did, I think that’s a good thing. So that’s why I talk about checklists and techniques used for engaging with clients. I describe a couple of ideal clients I’ve had, that just have been dreams to work with, but also a bunch of warnings about some of the headaches clients can give you; ways to look for them and ways to avoid them.

A lot of what I talk about is very practical. I’m a pragmatist. I’m not a theorist or methodologist. I’ve got some very practical stuff in there about the things any new consultant has to face. Like what do I charge? How do you set your rates? How do you manage your finances? How do you negotiate written agreements with clients to be both to your advantage and being fair? Because I think that win/win is a very important outcome that you mentioned earlier.

Mentioned the idea of establishing business policies and something that people, sometimes, either don’t think about or obsess about is insurance. Your company is not buying insurance for you anymore. You have to do that and there are different kinds of insurance you need if you are self-employed as well as things that you are already familiar with.

You probably want to grow your business, right? I mean you have done that. You start by yourself and you’ve got all sorts of people doing things with you now. Though you find ways to grow it, one of the things that I found was ways to develop multiple revenue streams. There ‘s a whole chapter that talks about ways you can earn a living while you are asleep. That’s my favorite part that became my goal. Some years ago, I said, how can I earn a living while I am asleep? And I thought of several ways to do that which actually worked surprisingly well. How do you land new business and repeat business? And one of the chapters talks about remote consulting and that’s something that you might do if you’re independent. You might end up working with somebody either a client or a colleague at a distance. Kind of what we are doing right now.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, the internet is amazing. I am grateful for it every day.

Karl Wiegers: So, two other areas that I think are really important to consultants, and I have alluded to those before talking about my own background. One is giving presentations. That’s pretty scary for lots of people and very understandably. But BAs and consultants often are called upon to give presentations of various kinds, you might do that to enhance your visibility or share what you know at conferences or teach classes. I have got a lot of tips about how to give effective presentations with confidence and those alone, I think, can make almost anybody feel better about standing in front of an audience.

You are going to develop intellectual property. You’ve got a lot and I’ve got a lot and we have to protect that. We want to find ways to leverage it so that you can, again, maximize your revenue with minimal work, and I’ve found some ways that worked for me to do that.

There’s a big section in the book about writing for publication. That can really enhance your consulting career as we were talking about. You’ve got a book. I’ve got books and people call us because they saw our books and said, oh, this looks like a useful person. Maybe we can get him to come teach us a class, or maybe we can send a bunch of people to their class or something.

So publishing’s a great way to share your knowledge and to promote yourself and your business, whether you’re writing for websites, blogs or magazines or books. I’ve got a lot of information in there that you don’t see most places, about how do you work with editors, what are the different kinds of editing? How do you put together a book proposal if you’ve got a book story that you want to try to sell to a publisher? What goes into a publication contract? What should you watch out for? How do you self-publish if you decided to go that route? I’ve done that a couple of times and I learned a little bit about that.

Finally, I’ve got a section, a whole chapter on co-authoring a book with other people because Joy Beatty and I worked together on the third edition of my Software Requirements book. That was a fun project. It was a huge project and she was just an absolute dream to work with and I am happy with that book. There is a lot of stuff in the book there.

Laura Brandenburg: Yes, I feel, like, to sum up, you’ve covered it all. It’s not just the one little piece of how to be a consultant or what the engagement looks like, it’s really the how do you build this as a business and as a potentially career long lifelong business. That’s invaluable.

Karl Wiegers: I tried to share pretty much everything that I found both good and bad about it. I have got some good input from some of the other consultants who contributed chapters. We all have had different sets of experiences, so getting some different angles helps a reader figure out what parts of this are most useful to the kind of work that I think I want to do.

Laura Brandenburg: Well, thank you so much. And people can find that. We’ll leave a link below. Is there a quick link, I kind of forgot that piece, that they can go to if they are just listening in?

Karl Wiegers: There are several places you can go. The best place is probably my website, ProcessImpact.com. I also have a personal site KarlWiegers.com and that’s I before E except after C. At KarlWiegers.com, you can find out about both my technical and non-technical books and you can also hear 17 songs that I wrote and recorded just for fun, plus a lot of covers I have recorded. I am no professional musician and thank you for noticing that I already know I can’t sing, but I don’t let that stop me.

Laura Brandenburg: Love it. Someday we’ll have to get back together and talk about the other things that you are doing outside of consulting. I’m sure you can find it on Amazon and major retailers as well.

Karl Wiegers: Yes, that is all true and it is readily available and there is a landing page at my ProcessImpact.com website that gives some sample chapters and a lot of very kind reviews. And I want to thank you, Laura, for your very nice foreword that you wrote for the book. That was a very nice plus and I appreciate it.

Laura Brandenburg: I was honored, thank you. We will leave a link to that below as well so anybody can get to that goodies too.

Karl Wiegers: Great.

Laura Brandenburg: So, one final question for you. You have been so generous with your knowledge and your sharing today. What does success look like to you, Karl?

Karl Wiegers: Well, you know I had to think about that, a few years ago when I was contemplating making a career change, I had to think about where do I get a lot of satisfaction. I concluded that I derive a lot of satisfaction from helping people do a better job with my help than they might have done otherwise. I get more pleasure from that than I do from inventing new schemes or models or anything like that.

So that led me to do work in the general area of process improvement. I think of that as a very broad thing of training and consulting and I’m pretty good and finding ways to improve things, whatever people are doing. It’s hard for me not to spot, something that could be done better.

So, success to me is mostly hearing from people who have taken my classes or read my books or articles who tell me how helpful my material has been to them. They relate stories about how things have improved in their company since they started applying some of the techniques I advocate. That really means a lot to me. And anytime I hear that people find my work to be useful I feel like I have done something helpful.

Laura Brandenburg: That’s awesome. That’s the impact in Process Impact. Right?

Karl Wiegers: That’s the impact, exactly. That name was carefully chosen.

Laura Brandenburg: I’m sure, I’m sure it was. Alright, well thank you, so much.

Karl Wiegers: Thank you, Laura.

Laura Brandenburg: Again, you shared so many awesome tips and ideas and I think probably convinced a lot of BAs that they might want to be a consultant someday, or given them a really good reason to stay in corporate, right, one or the other. Which either way is totally fine.

Karl Wiegers: Well, so long as people can reach a conclusion and say I’m pretty comfortable with what I’ve decided, that’s what important.

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome, well thank you, Karl.

Karl Wiegers: My pleasure, thank you very much, Laura.

Laura Brandenburg: You’re welcome.

Watch or read to learn:

• How Lisa went from Administrative Assistant to Business Analysis.
• What it looks like to roll out a sustainability initiative in a large corporate environment.
• How to expand your business analysis skills by volunteering at non-profits.
• The 3 different BA-related roles in Dominion, how people move into these roles, and what it takes to be successful.

There are so many gems here. I will just share that one thing that inspires me about Lisa is seeing the ripple effect of business analysis, and the value of the contributions our community is making every day, to make the world’s organizations and the world better.

Connect with Lisa Curll on LinkedIn

For those who like to read instead of watch, here’s the full text of the video:

Laura Brandenburg: This is Laura Brandenburg from Bridging the Gap, and I’m here today with Lisa Curll from Dominion Energy. Hi Lisa. 

Lisa Curll: Hi. Hey.

Laura Brandenburg: So, Lisa and I have connected through some training that we did for her and some of the business analysts in her organization. She’s just doing some amazing rock star stuff with her career. So, she agreed to talk to us a little bit about what’s happening for her, about the different roles that they have in her company, and about some of the other pieces that I see her share on social media as well that I think make her contribution to the community unique and special, and something I think we can all learn a lot from.  So, thank you for being here, Lisa. 

Do you want to just jump in and tell us a little bit about the role you’re currently in and how that came to be? 

Lisa Curll: Sure. So right now, I am a Senior Business Performance Analyst and Dominion Energy. I work in our Workplace Plan and Facilities Management Group. I manage our office sustainability programs right now. I’m overseeing a lot of our waste reduction strategies, our recycling programs, composting programs, LEED building construction, those types of processes, loading efficiency; still looking at that. There were a couple of other things that Dominion Energy, in terms of employee development and employee engagement and retention strategies.  

Outside of Dominion, I do a lot of work in the nonprofit community. I’m on a couple of nonprofit Boards holding kind of different roles between fundraising, program development, different kind of funding strategies, corporate strategy, that kind of thing. 

Laura Brandenburg: So, lots of stuff.  

Lisa Curll: Quite a variety of things. Yeah.  

Laura Brandenburg: Tell us a little bit about with all these programs and projects you have, what’s your role on them? 

Lisa Curll: Most of the time, when we want to start something new and it doesn’t seem to fit into any existing group, that kind of when it comes to me. Anytime we want to start a new initiative or a new program, usually that comes to me and I will scope it out, develop a process, develop a team, get all the team kind of on the same page, make sure there are guidance documents so, eventually, I can roll off and they can follow a guidance document.

But, essentially, just kind of do the scoping, networking, the relationship building between the different groups, departments, and organizations; figure out what we need and how we’re going to make this new program work. And then start implementing it. Once it’s implemented, usually once it’s running smoothly, that’s when I roll it out to somebody else and start a new project. 

Laura Brandenburg: Awesome. That’s the fun part of the project for so many people. How did it come to be? How did you end up in this role? 

Lisa Curll: I started at Dominion Energy, I came in as an administrative assistant role, and over time, I convinced them to just keep giving me more and more things. The benefit of my position is most of the things I acquired are things that no one else wants or doesn’t fit into them. So, it’s really easy to say, “Hey, no one else wants that. Go ahead and give it to me. Let me try it.” Worst case scenario, if I fail, it wasn’t anyone else’s job anyway, so you’re kind of still in the same boat that you started in, just a couple of weeks behind. So there’s not really that much risk with giving me the chance to try it. 

Over the last six years, I managed, kind of, from that administrative position through our business analyst program into where I am now. I did a lot of data analysis when I started. I did a lot of kind of modeling and metrics. And then since then, I’ve pivoted more to more of like a project manager, program manager kind of role. It’s just been pretty organic. It’s been, every time there’s been an opportunity for a new project, I’m the first person to have my hand out. Like, “Hey, let me try that.” And just being not afraid to try new things has enabled me to create this position. 

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, and that’s such a big core philosophy, I think, whether you’re trying to get into business analysis or get to the next level. It’s just like, “Hey, I’ll do it.” Right. And you can create a big, a kind of an interesting path for you.  

What are some of the challenges you faced doing that? I can imagine you might be really busy. 

Lisa Curll: It’s a lot. A lot of it is managing the schedule of a brand new program that’s never existed. When I start out, people ask me how long do you think this is going to take? And since it’s something we’ve never done before, a lot of that is blind estimation. Then that’s always, kind of a priority.

I have a couple of projects right now, just this week, I have projects that had intended to start in the third quarter which, for us, would be August/September, is when I was playing to start these things that are now being pushed to, literally, right this second.

There are some allocation issues that come up and, obviously, there’s always resource allocation issues with creating teams. So, most of the teams that I create are not reporting to me directly. So, they are individuals from different groups across the company that will volunteer to be part of these programs. There’s also being respectful of their time and the amount of energy that they’re able to devote to these kinds of processes. That’s been the biggest thing. 

I think the thing that has helped, though, a lot is creating detailed scope with target dates and responsibilities very explicitly so there are no doubts that people know exactly what I am expecting of them rather than having more vague concepts. And we have check-in times that I can say, “Okay, we’re supposed to have this done in a week. Where are we at? Do you need help? Do you want to shift this? What do we need to do so that we can manage this project’s schedule and get towards actual completion? I can also share that with my management, their management, and make sure we’re all on the same page if things are getting shifted around or anything like that.   

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, so across all these projects you’ve done, which it sounds like some really interesting things, does anything stand out like a milestone, like any specific projects or initiative? 

Lisa Curll: I’m in the middle of a corporate composting program right now that I am incredibly excited about. Starting right now, knocking wood, we are one of the first energy companies in the world to start composting at our corporate offices as a waste production strategy.  

I started this last year in April and we piloted it here in Cleveland. I’m based in Cleveland, so we piloted here and it was successful, but it wasn’t very well designed. As we started expanding, maybe middle of this year, we’ll be at five different locations hitting about 3,000 employees.

By the end of 2020, we might be at as many as 10 locations with closer to 7,000 or 8,000 employees. It’s growing really fast. As we started learning from our implementation, I call these bullets, and I really don’t know how they’re going to go because that way, if they fail, it’s a pilot and we learn from it and we do it differently next time. But our implementation at one of four sites in Virginia, in our Innsbrook site, we built a really detailed schedule with those kind of step-by-step marks, and that was, of course, the first time that I’d really seen us do that kind of project schedule for a program like that, and it made the implementation so easy that I know that’s what I want to implement, and I can show that to gain confidence with people when I move to new sites.

So, a lot of times, I’m running these sites, meeting people at these sites for the very first time, and I’m making my first impression when I meet them. And they don’t know anything about me. They know that I’m from corporate and that I’m coming here with an initiative. And to build that kind of trust and confidence, that this isn’t just a top down corporate initiative, I want to build their engagement, I want them to be on board. I want them to see that we have an organized strategy for how we move through these things, and it involves their input, and it involves their expertise and their connections, and leverage and their network within the building, and their skill set has enabled us to implement programs like this.

Accomplishing this initiative, for as well as the one that I’m most deeply involved with right now, but it’s also my, probably, biggest passion project that I’ve gotten to work in in the last six years.  

The end of this year, we have a goal of ousting about 20,000 pounds of organic waste that normally would have gone to landfill that will go into renewable processes instead. Our goal is 20,000. I think we’ll actually exceed that. My hope is we get closer to like 40,000 or 50,000. So, we’ll see. 

Laura Brandenburg: Hey, a special ripple effect is that, right.  A huge impact. 

Lisa Curll: Food waste is one of the biggest impacts to our landfill, especially by weight. Food waste comprises kind of the largest percentage of our landfills across the United States. So, what we can do as a corporation to reduce that is incredibly impactful. Implementing that kind of process change also impacts our culture. Employees come in and they see that we’re an energy company and we have all these renewable energy initiatives. We do renewable energy. We have solar, we have wind, we’re starting renewable natural gas, we have hydro.  

But then within our offices, too, we’re implementing sustainable strategies that employees can engage with every single site. That kind of process, when you start it, trying to bring in new employees, hit them at a daily kind of personal level, which I really find meaningful in our organization. 

Laura Brandenburg: Right. So, in one way it’s about, yes, eliminating or redirecting that waste, but also I can see it having just this effect in terms of the culture and the kinds of initiatives that come up even from this, and even role modeling that for other organizations, and showing how possible it is with what you’ve done. I’ve seen some of the posts you’ve posted to LinkedIn, some of these successes, and it’s so cool to see organizations actually making those changes inside their company. So, thanks for that. 

Lisa Curll: We have a composting partner here in Cleveland. I’ve known the guys here doubted it for a couple of years, but we were their first application. A big front facing corporate model. Normally, they would work with restaurants and they would collect the materials that are generated in the kitchen that would normally go into landfill, but they hadn’t worked on the front end with employees actually putting waste into these streams. And so contamination is a huge issue. That’s a whole nother process that we needed to identify and educate and train around. There’s contamination.  

You can’t. If you put Styrofoam into a compost bin and it winds up in the compost pile, I mean, even in six weeks, it’s still going to be Styrofoam. You need to pick that out. How do you eliminate that? That’s the kind of business analysis type of problem-solving that we’re doing on this end, which is so much fun and also kind of scary, because we don’t really know what we’re doing, but we’re figuring it out.  

Laura Brandenburg: But you trust yourself to figure it out. Right? 

Lisa Curll: Yes. 

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah, so, now in addition to these positive projects in your company, you do a lot of nonprofit work outside in your own personal life as well. Right? 

Lisa Curll: Yes. 

Laura Brandenburg: Do you want to just share a little bit more about that? I’d be interested to hear, in particular, if there are any overlaps or ways that you see that enhancing your career and what you’re able to do inside Dominion as well. 

Lisa Curll: I do kind of a plethora of different nonprofit … 

Laura Brandenburg: I know. 

Lisa Curll: Some of them are more related to legitimate skill sets than others. I worked a lot with the American Hiking Society. We do volunteer vacations. It’s a week that you take and you go into space on public land, so National Forests, National Park kind of things. You’ll work on a trail for a week. That doesn’t really require the type of business analyst skill, but it’s a really good way for me to escape and recharge. So, I do a lot of those.  

But within this northeast Ohio area, I’m on a couple of nonprofit Boards. One of the Boards I’m on is called the Ohio Erie Canal Way Coalition. I’m on their Associate Board. We put together some amazing events, like this Bike Ride. It’s a 50-kilometer bike ride that goes kind of through the city of Akron and down through, and so it’s a little bit of a process in use case scenarios and when someone bikes from Point A to Point B, where do we need to have refueling stations? What does the sign-up process look like? How many people can we actually accommodate? What are all the logistics of that? How do we fundraise at different levels? How do we reward different levels?

That kind of thing. What are the brands in mind for ingenuity Cleveland? Here in Cleveland, we are focusing on starting a new membership program. So, it’s not just what would compel someone to be a member and what benefits can we offer. That’s the end of the software side. When we collect that information, how do we track what date they started? If it’s a one-year membership, how are we tracking when they renew, if we’re offering benefits that differ year over year? How are we making sure those benefits are equal? All of that. Where do you even store what kind of database are you building to store all this information that someone can go out and manage.  

Laura Brandenburg: Yeah. There’s so much business analysis that happens. This was not on the questions, so I hope you don’t mind me throwing you a little curveball here, but one of the questions that we receive so often, people will do our training and I’ll recommend volunteer work at a nonprofit is a great way to build experience, especially if you’re in between positions, or have a bit of a career gap. It seems like you’ve found all these ways of doing that. But what lea you, what did that path look like to getting into a role where you are actually using business analysis skills for a nonprofit? 

Lisa Curll: A lot of nonprofits, I mean a resource constraint, because by definition, nonprofits are almost always resource constraints. A lot of times, if you just go to them and ask, “Can I help you? What do you need? What can I consult?” And a lot of them are willing to give you a project.  

One of the organizations that I’m involved with in Cleveland is called the Cleveland Leadership Center. We have a Bridge Boaters program.  Every year we take in a cohort of about 60 mid-career level professionals and we pair them in teams in little cohorts of 6 – 8 people with nonprofits to work with these nonprofits on a project over a period of six months.

Over the earlier part of last year, I had a chance to work with the International Women’s Air and Space Museum. We worked on a couple of projects for them. How do we increase fundraising for their major course on the concourse wine event? (Big plug if you’re in the Cleveland area, you should go to that.) How do we create an internship program for them where the interns actually have skills that they can use where they’re learning and the organization is benefiting?

But it’s really just reaching out and asking. A lot of times, it’s reaching out to smaller local organizations. There are nonprofits everywhere. There are grades of websites where you can go and look up nonprofits. Charity Navigator is a great one where you can kind of see information about them. They’re rated. A lot of them are rated on how much of what you donate to them actually goes back to their programming and their mission.

But it’s really finding things that you’re passionate about and then asking how you can help because a lot of them, a lot of our nonprofits in the United States desperately need help, and it’s not just funding. 

Laura Brandenburg: It sounds like – to extrapolate a few takeaways there – to focus on something in your location. That’s going to be easier. Find a nonprofit in your location. And almost be willing to own a project of some sort. Trust you’re going to use business analysis skills in that project, but I think it’s you need to go to them and ask what project do you need help on, and the business analysis piece is going to come from that, more than likely. 

Lisa Curll: I would push the local organizations more than the well known national ones. The national ones are easy. American Hiking Society; I love them. They’re nationwide, but there are limited amounts that I can probably reach out and say, “Can I do this for you?” Because it would take them almost as much time to explain to me what they need me to do as it would for them to just do it in-house.  

The local organizations, you can really integrate with them.  And where you have the community networks, you are able to kind of be onsite for some time, really understand their business, sit with them, and identify areas where either they can improve or help with those projects they have; the more that you can be close to them, not just geographically, but also with mission alignment, the better fit that will be.

It’s a resume builder. That’s great, but that’s not really what it’s about. It’s about mission alignment, really.  

Laura Brandenburg: Finding something that you’re legitimately interested in and passionate about and that you can, you’re doing not just as part of, maybe, the course, but more of a long term commitment too.   

Lisa Curll: And, especially, because they’re not going to pay you. They’re probably not going to pay you. You need to actually care about what you’re doing because the last thing you want to do is commit to helping them, take on a project that’s important to them, and then get burnt out or quit. I mean you can’t, at that point, you can’t do that. The closer that this is to your heart and your soul, the more value you’ll get out of it, personally, for doing it, and the more value the nonprofit will get because you’re likely to really stay with it and give it all your energy.  

Laura Brandenburg: Great point. Awesome. Back to Dominion a little bit, too. I love all the different things that you do. It’s amazing. But I know, you have this very unique role in your organization, but you’ve discovered different pockets of business analysis. Can you talk about what the different roles look like? 

Lisa Curll: Yeah, so we now have 21,000 employees right now. About 300 or so of them are in some type of business analyst role, and they fall into three separate buckets.